ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard • Hacker News Board

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#51

Post by zadjii » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

tetris11 wrote: post #46

me_me_me wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops. It is and it isn't. It depends if/when you stop. I just got $250 keyboard. My last one was also in that range. Though it lasted me around 10 years. I don't think its evil wanting to have nice things. Its problem when 'you life to buy things, not buy things to live.'

I have never spent more than 30 € on a keyboard and mouse combo, and that's over the span of the last 10 years... I have never peeked over the price wall into the higher end stuff because it genuinely has never occurred to me that my current keyboard+mouse were hindering my productivity. High contrast screen? Sure, squinting hurts. Office-cancelling headphones? Sure, loud noises ruin my concentration But keyboard and…

For me, it was about 2 weeks ago. My left wrist is just a _little_ sore, but constantly. I've noticed that if I rotate my keyboard towards my left hand, the pain gets better, so now I'm starting to think that it's something that I'll need to actually get better hardware to prevent getting worse.

I've indulged in a nicer keyboard once before, but only because I was intrigued by the novelty of mechanical keycaps. Now I'm thinking that I'll need to take the plunge and get something more ergonomic, because I've still got a lot of career left.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#52

Post by andrewla » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

One thing I have never been able to understand about split keyboard designs is why they don't put the characters on the split ("Y/T G/H V/B/N") on _both_ sides of the keyboard. I mean, are key caps a high cost? There's a correct way to type, but it doesn't need to be so strict. Sometimes (often) the natural use of a keyboard (like holding down a control character for a sequence of keys) makes it so that we type on the wrong side because one hand is badly out of position.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#53

Post by gchucky » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #52

One thing I have never been able to understand about split keyboard designs is why they don't put the characters on the split ("Y/T G/H V/B/N") on _both_ sides of the keyboard. I mean, are key caps a high cost? There's a correct way to type, but it doesn't need to be so strict. Sometimes (often) the natural use of a keyboard (like holding down a control character for a sequence of keys) makes it so that we type on th…

The keyboard layouts are entirely customizable, so you could configure the keys to the right of T and left of Y to be the other one.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#54

Post by DennisP » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

tetris11 wrote: post #46

me_me_me wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops. It is and it isn't. It depends if/when you stop. I just got $250 keyboard. My last one was also in that range. Though it lasted me around 10 years. I don't think its evil wanting to have nice things. Its problem when 'you life to buy things, not buy things to live.'

I have never spent more than 30 € on a keyboard and mouse combo, and that's over the span of the last 10 years... I have never peeked over the price wall into the higher end stuff because it genuinely has never occurred to me that my current keyboard+mouse were hindering my productivity. High contrast screen? Sure, squinting hurts. Office-cancelling headphones? Sure, loud noises ruin my concentration But keyboard and…

If you don't have repetitive stress problems already, then ergonomic keyboards aren't necessarily about improving your productivity right now. They're about preventing a serious reduction in your productivity years from now.

(However, after buying a mech keyboard to deal with finger joint pain, and training myself to type without bottoming out much, I discovered I was typing faster.)

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#55

Post by wy35 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:51 PM UTC

Milank wrote: post #12

This doesn't feel like a big step forward, like something new and revolutionary. It's more like an iteration of previous models, with some small tweaks and perks. But I'm happy that split keyboard market is getting more and more attention.

Yes, I'm disappointed to see that this isn't a contoured keyboard -- still waiting for a contoured keyboard (e.g. Advantage2) with the customization of the ErgoDox without having to build it myself (e.g. Dactyl Manuform).

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#56

Post by noelwelsh » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:54 PM UTC

mellavora wrote: post #9

rkagerer wrote: post #6

Neat! If you're interested in this kind of thing, I recommend also checking out the Kinesis Advantage.

Yes, I love my Kinesis. Looks line ZSA is borrowing Kinesis's idea of putting a number of special keys into a "thumb-bar". Not sure if Kinesis actually invented that idea, but I think they were the first to bring it to market. And yes, the Moonlander looks very interesting!

I believe Maltron did it first and Kinesis stole the idea from them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron

Maltron keyboards are excellent but expensive and hard to source, particularly outside of the UK.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#57

Post by wy35 » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

gregwebs wrote: post #42

I highly recommend the kinesis freestyle edge keyboard which costs around $200 but has roughly all the same features besides the thumb module. I also highly recommend a split keyboard in general: my shoulder issues are noticeably better when using them. A split keyboard may not help with wrist pain. Personally I was able to get rid of any wrist pain by strengthening through climbing.

I'm not sure if I agree with the Freestyle being an equivalent alternative. The Freestyle uses a traditional row-staggered layout while this keyboard uses a column-staggered layout. A column-staggered layout IMO is much more comfortable since your fingers are given their own dedicated column without having to awkwardly twist your wrist.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#58

Post by dharmab » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #52

One thing I have never been able to understand about split keyboard designs is why they don't put the characters on the split ("Y/T G/H V/B/N") on _both_ sides of the keyboard. I mean, are key caps a high cost? There's a correct way to type, but it doesn't need to be so strict. Sometimes (often) the natural use of a keyboard (like holding down a control character for a sequence of keys) makes it so that we type on th…

You can do that. I have 123456 on the left of my ErgoDox and 567890 on the right.

The keyboard is programmable using a visual editor or C code: https://github.com/dharmab/ergodox

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#59

Post by mohaine » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 3:02 PM UTC

wy35 wrote: post #55

Milank wrote: post #12

This doesn't feel like a big step forward, like something new and revolutionary. It's more like an iteration of previous models, with some small tweaks and perks. But I'm happy that split keyboard market is getting more and more attention.

Yes, I'm disappointed to see that this isn't a contoured keyboard -- still waiting for a contoured keyboard (e.g. Advantage2) with the customization of the ErgoDox without having to build it myself (e.g. Dactyl Manuform).

This. After using Advantage2 for 10ish years I can't really go back to a flat keyboard. I liked my Keyboardio Model 1 but the Advantage2 is just more comfortable.

I love the idea of customization but the flatness has me looking at all these as non-starters.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#60

Post by ahelwer » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 3:03 PM UTC

tetris11 wrote: post #46

me_me_me wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops. It is and it isn't. It depends if/when you stop. I just got $250 keyboard. My last one was also in that range. Though it lasted me around 10 years. I don't think its evil wanting to have nice things. Its problem when 'you life to buy things, not buy things to live.'

I have never spent more than 30 € on a keyboard and mouse combo, and that's over the span of the last 10 years... I have never peeked over the price wall into the higher end stuff because it genuinely has never occurred to me that my current keyboard+mouse were hindering my productivity. High contrast screen? Sure, squinting hurts. Office-cancelling headphones? Sure, loud noises ruin my concentration But keyboard and…

The three most impactful things you can do to avoid wrist injuries are:

(1) Ensuring your chair, desk, and keyboard are set up so your wrists are straight when typing

(2) Using a split/tilted keyboard so your wrists do not need to rotate as much when you type

(3) Using a vertical mouse so your wrist does not need to rotate as much when mousing

You can accomplish all of this for very cheap. A bit more than you're spending, but not an order of magnitude more (unless your desk or chair are very bad). Once you get into mechanical keyswitches or exotic keyboard layouts you're just messing around imo. Membrane keyboards are fine. They're fine! And very quiet.