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‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

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Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police kill more white people in absolute terms than black people. But white people are a larger percentage of the population, so it's still disproportionately black people. But the disproportionality goes the other way if you account for the difference in violent crime rates. Then someone could argue that the difference in violent crime rates is itself a result of racism, and someone else could argue that that i…

It would be nice to see one well done summary analysis of all the data that is available, including inclusion of as many as possible of reasonable "...but on the other hand..." caveats as possible. I have not once encountered a single article that even attempts this, it seems everything is written from a biased perspective.

I'm not sure that type of analysis is even possible. The more factors you want to take into account, the larger the sample size you need. But there are so many factors here that you could need a sample size which is larger than the entire US population, which is obviously not available.

It seems to me the better solution is to just solve the problems. Stop spending all day arguing about whether the criminal justice system is racist and instead do something about the fact that the US has the world's largest prison population. Do something about housing costs. Do something about barriers to starting a small business.

These problems may disproportionately affect black people, but they still affect everybody and solving them is a net benefit either way. Conditioning a solution to a problem on the existence of racism when the problem exists regardless is just drawing useless tribalist lines that get people fighting each other instead of solving things.

Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the Wikipedia article you linked: "The condition is not recognized by the American Psychiatric Association, American Medical Association or the World Health Organization." It's under the section titled "Controversy_related_to_policing_techniques".[1] Just because something is well-known and documented doesn't mean it's recognized as a medical or psychological condition. Sometimes it can be that medicine hasn't c…

It is curious that the section you identified was added June 17th, 2020.

That... doesn't appear to be true. It's Wikipedia, the whole history is available. Heres the page as of early/mid April: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Excited_delirium&..., which as far back as I've bothered to go, and the cited paragraph is still there.

Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#53
post #47

If you want to say someone's toe hurts because they stubbed it, you can refer to it as " stubbed toe pain ". Even if " stubbed toe pain " isn't an official diagnosis in some health organizations, that doesn't mean it's junk science. I don't get why the article's attacking the term "excited delirium " in the first place, though. I mean, do the authors think that the correctness of police-brutality hinges on whether or…

The question isn’t whether the authors think that, it’s whether the police think that. If you thought a suspect had superhuman strength and was impervious to pain, wouldn’t you use more lethal means to control them?

Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#54
post #30

Science doesn’t have a great explanation for everything, but that doesn’t make it junk science. Suffice to say it’s not uncommon for people to die suddenly when they encounter stressful situations, even not related to police interactions. I remember reading about a case where a person fell through the ice on a lake, the water never going over his head. He was pulled out immediately, but died of cardiac arrest. What h…

> Science doesn’t have a great explanation for everything, but that doesn’t make it junk science. The issue here is that some people (the police) are applying this idea as if it was a great explanation . That's what makes it junk science.

No doubt cops use excessive for in some cases and blame it on excited delirium.

I guess my point is - it’s probably true in some cases.

Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#55
post #47

If you want to say someone's toe hurts because they stubbed it, you can refer to it as " stubbed toe pain ". Even if " stubbed toe pain " isn't an official diagnosis in some health organizations, that doesn't mean it's junk science. I don't get why the article's attacking the term "excited delirium " in the first place, though. I mean, do the authors think that the correctness of police-brutality hinges on whether or…

The question isn’t whether the authors think that, it’s whether the police think that. If you thought a suspect had superhuman strength and was impervious to pain, wouldn’t you use more lethal means to control them?

[deleted]

Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#56
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Science doesn’t have a great explanation for everything, but that doesn’t make it junk science. The issue here is that some people (the police) are applying this idea as if it was a great explanation . That's what makes it junk science.

No doubt cops use excessive for in some cases and blame it on excited delirium. I guess my point is - it’s probably true in some cases.

Indeed. But "probably true in some cases" is sorta a giant red flag for "junk science". Real medicine uses higher standards before basing policy on a model like this.

Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#57
post #47

If you want to say someone's toe hurts because they stubbed it, you can refer to it as " stubbed toe pain ". Even if " stubbed toe pain " isn't an official diagnosis in some health organizations, that doesn't mean it's junk science. I don't get why the article's attacking the term "excited delirium " in the first place, though. I mean, do the authors think that the correctness of police-brutality hinges on whether or…

The question isn’t whether the authors think that, it’s whether the police think that. If you thought a suspect had superhuman strength and was impervious to pain, wouldn’t you use more lethal means to control them?

Did you read the article as critiquing the belief that some suspects have superhuman strength and imperviousness to pain?

I mean, I Google'd "drug-induced strength". Among the first few hits were [this video][1] and [this article][2], which seem like reasonable evidence of those two symptoms existing together.

The article's logic was disjointed, but I read it as primarily focusing on terminology. If it was instead an argument against the existence of those symptoms, that'd be a tad confusing given stuff like the YouTube video.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV6FnGeYUOE&t=24

[2]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/1...

Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is curious that the section you identified was added June 17th, 2020.

That... doesn't appear to be true. It's Wikipedia, the whole history is available. Heres the page as of early/mid April: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Excited_delirium&... , which as far back as I've bothered to go, and the cited paragraph is still there.

in addition, here is the link for covering all changes on June 17, which shows that the section is question was not created or renamed on June 17, though it was substantially modified on that day : https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Excited_delirium&...

I don't know why it being substantially modified on that day would be important. Is there some significance to that date that I'm unaware of, other than it being "1 month ago today"?

Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#59

How long are we going to keep ignoring the fact that statistics do not show any racial bias in police killings, and if anything they show bias against white perpetrators rather than black?

I mean, if you have citations for these, trot them out.

I'm assuming it's related to the MSU study and the VP of research at the university who was quoted in a WSJ article and subsequently fired due to his role talking about it to the media.

A rough outline by the authors is here, you can search scihub for the actual paper.

https://research.msu.edu/the-truth-behind-racial-disparties-...

As for the Professor Hsu controversy, here's some additional data:

> the main thrust to oust Hsu came because the professor touted Michigan State research that found police are not more likely to shoot African-Americans

> The graduate union told The Fix that administrators should not share research that runs counter to public statements by the university.

> “It is the union’s position that an administrator sharing such views is in opposition to MSU’s statements released supporting the protests and their root cause and aim,” Ackles wrote in an e-mail to The College Fix.

https://www.thecollegefix.com/scholar-forced-to-resign-over-...

Re: ‘Excited delirium’, used by police to justify brutality, is junk science

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice to see one well done summary analysis of all the data that is available, including inclusion of as many as possible of reasonable "...but on the other hand..." caveats as possible. I have not once encountered a single article that even attempts this, it seems everything is written from a biased perspective.

I'm not sure that type of analysis is even possible. The more factors you want to take into account, the larger the sample size you need. But there are so many factors here that you could need a sample size which is larger than the entire US population, which is obviously not available. It seems to me the better solution is to just solve the problems. Stop spending all day arguing about whether the criminal justice s…

> I'm not sure that type of analysis is even possible. The more factors you want to take into account, the larger the sample size you need. But there are so many factors here that you could need a sample size which is larger than the entire US population, which is obviously not available.

Mostly agree. It certainly couldn't be done with perfection, as there are essentially an infinite number of discreet variables in existence, many of which we do not even know the existence of, most that we do not have measurements on (or even a way to measure them), and all these variables have inter-relations that we don't understand (or even know of), resulting in randomness of outcome making predictions even harder.

But what do we do instead? The majority of the time we look at, say, 1 to 3 variables, and then form highly confident conclusions based on this trivially and obviously (if you actually think abstractly about it) simplified perspective, all under the guise that we are discussing reality. In these discussions, we (and this also includes the bright minds here on HN) are not actually discussing reality, but rather a comically simplistic version of reality. And then on top of it, many here mock others for their "simple-minded" beliefs, when the reality is that typically a big part of the reason behind the difference is that different people have different working sets of variables, and different weighting on those variables due to holding different values. The irony is rich.

And most of this occurs in the subconscious (so they say), so even if one makes a valiant effort to think more properly, much of the truth (on how different people think differently) is hidden from not just the observer, but the person who holds the thoughts in the first place.

> It seems to me the better solution is to just solve the problems. Stop spending all day arguing about whether the criminal justice system is racist and instead do something about the fact that the US has the world's largest prison population. Do something about housing costs. Do something about barriers to starting a small business.

Mostly agree. But again, this entire process suffers from this same phenomenon (roughly, we do not know, or care, what is true), and democracies are particularly vulnerable to the problems that derive from it. I suspect this gives China a major leg up over Western powers in the coming decades - if they can stumble upon an operating model that works better (accommodates the real variables, regardless of whether they see and understand the system better than us or not), they can enforce compliance far more easily than democratic nations.

In my opinion, step 1 in improving this state of affairs is gaining an understanding of what the situation actually is (aka: doing an "appropriate" system analysis) - but even the geniuses here on HN not only cannot do that, but often become angry with anyone who even dares suggest it (as it implies that their wild-guess of a theory may not be correct - the horror).

Is the absolute root of the problem not the human mind? Outside of natural events/disasters that are not caused by man, do most all other things (beliefs, practices, culture, initiatives, resource allocation, governance decisions, you name it) not derive from the mind (or collection of minds)? And yet, how much attention do we pay to this, in any venue? Here again, I would say the advantage goes to countries that do not adhere to a scientific-materialist religion [1] like most Western peoples.

> These problems may disproportionately affect black people, but they still affect everybody and solving them is a net benefit either way. Conditioning a solution to a problem on the existence of racism when the problem exists regardless is just drawing useless tribalist lines that get people fighting each other instead of solving things.

100% agree, based on the above.

[1] https://www.britannica.com/topic/religion

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