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Curry Before Columbus

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51–60 of 71 posts

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#51
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. I disagree. You're describing the difference between "spicy" (e.g., cayenne) and "warm spiced" or "spiced" (e.g., cumin). When a dish tastes of cumin, one doesn't call it "spicy", they use a different term.

There's a traditional dish from the Greek island of Corfu called "pastitsada". It's pasta topped with meat (usually beef) cooked in a red tomato sauce with cinnamon, allspice, nutmeg, clove, paprika, chilli pepper, black pepper and cumin. I typically add white pepper and cardamom, others have their own secret recipes. So, how do you call that, if not spicy? It's a genuine question because English is not my first lang…

In English, "spicy" (usually) means that it will cause your tongue to burn and/or tingle due to the effects of chili pepper or black pepper or hot mustard or anything that causes your mouth to react with what I would call a physical sensation rather than a flavor sensation (of course they are not entirely distinct but that is where I draw the line).

Many dishes contain a lot of spices (nutmeg, cardamom, clove, etc.) but they aren't considered "spicy" because there's no sensation of heat/burning. These dishes are "spiced" but not "spicy" (in English).

It doesn't necessarily make sense, but that is just how common usage has evolved.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#52
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. I disagree. You're describing the difference between "spicy" (e.g., cayenne) and "warm spiced" or "spiced" (e.g., cumin). When a dish tastes of cumin, one doesn't call it "spicy", they use a different term.

There's a traditional dish from the Greek island of Corfu called "pastitsada". It's pasta topped with meat (usually beef) cooked in a red tomato sauce with cinnamon, allspice, nutmeg, clove, paprika, chilli pepper, black pepper and cumin. I typically add white pepper and cardamom, others have their own secret recipes. So, how do you call that, if not spicy? It's a genuine question because English is not my first lang…

I guess this is an American thing. Typically "spicy" relates to the heat level. The "spices" used in the food typically are described with other terms ("well seasoned", "flavored", etc)

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#53
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. I disagree. You're describing the difference between "spicy" (e.g., cayenne) and "warm spiced" or "spiced" (e.g., cumin). When a dish tastes of cumin, one doesn't call it "spicy", they use a different term.

There's a traditional dish from the Greek island of Corfu called "pastitsada". It's pasta topped with meat (usually beef) cooked in a red tomato sauce with cinnamon, allspice, nutmeg, clove, paprika, chilli pepper, black pepper and cumin. I typically add white pepper and cardamom, others have their own secret recipes. So, how do you call that, if not spicy? It's a genuine question because English is not my first lang…

fragrant and spicy

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#54

Just before the lockdown I threw away some hing that had been on my spice rack for a long time. Way longer than one should keep spices. So I went to the local spice shop to stock up on some items, including a fresh jar of asefetida. I had forgotten how pungent it is when fresh. Now when I open the cabinet it hits me.

I keep my bottle of hing in another bottle.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#55
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. I disagree. You're describing the difference between "spicy" (e.g., cayenne) and "warm spiced" or "spiced" (e.g., cumin). When a dish tastes of cumin, one doesn't call it "spicy", they use a different term.

There's a traditional dish from the Greek island of Corfu called "pastitsada". It's pasta topped with meat (usually beef) cooked in a red tomato sauce with cinnamon, allspice, nutmeg, clove, paprika, chilli pepper, black pepper and cumin. I typically add white pepper and cardamom, others have their own secret recipes. So, how do you call that, if not spicy? It's a genuine question because English is not my first lang…

I'd probably just call it flavorful. Might be described as "warm spiced" on a restaurant menu because of the first four spices, which are often included in blends called (among other names) warm spices.

I might also call it spicy because of the chili pepper.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#56
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. I disagree. You're describing the difference between "spicy" (e.g., cayenne) and "warm spiced" or "spiced" (e.g., cumin). When a dish tastes of cumin, one doesn't call it "spicy", they use a different term.

There's a traditional dish from the Greek island of Corfu called "pastitsada". It's pasta topped with meat (usually beef) cooked in a red tomato sauce with cinnamon, allspice, nutmeg, clove, paprika, chilli pepper, black pepper and cumin. I typically add white pepper and cardamom, others have their own secret recipes. So, how do you call that, if not spicy? It's a genuine question because English is not my first lang…

It has chili peppers, so you certainly can call it spicy, if you want to highlight that aspect of the flavor specifically. But you don't need to limit yourself to one word, especially when it seems like this dish has a lot of different aspects to it, so you could also use others like "spiced" or "warmly spiced" to refer to the flavors like cinnamon, cumin clove, etc, specifically or that a lot of such spices were used.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#57

I've lived in Peru which also has a very spicy cuisine (many chilis come from the Andes). However, you'd be surprised at the amount of locals who confessed to me they didn't like food that is too spicy (they like it mildly spiced, or white people spiced as the article says) or spicy at all. It wouldn't surprise me if these two combined would represent 50% of the population. Could be the same in India.

There’s a tendency to conflate “spicy” flavor with “chilly” or “hot”. They are two orthogonal parameters, you could dial (up or down) them independent of each other. Most spices aren’t chilly, they add unique smell and flavor without burning the tongue. Coming to India, almost every cuisine is spicy for sure. At least I don’t know of one that is not. Indians grow up immersed in spicy food and can’t live without it. A…

I found the cuisine of Tamil Nadu near Madurai to not be very spicy. Perhaps that's because I'm used to Andhra food, with our explosive mango pickles.

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note though that the Japanese call their curry カレー ("karee"), and adopted it via the British, so it's not appropriate to call its name a colonial viewpoint.

The Japanese Navy apparently acquired a "curry" tradition from the British Royal Navy https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/japanese-curry-history NB Jared Diamond's book Upheaval mentions how Japan reacted to a crisis in the 19th century by going out and seeking the best sources to copy - for naval matters that happened to be the Royal Navy and curry came with that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upheaval:_How_Nation…

> Japan reacted to a crisis in the 19th century by going out and seeking the best sources to copy

That would be the Meiji Restoration, where the Japanese decided they were tired of being kicked around and were going to reform and westernize on their terms.

They chose to model their Navy off of the British, and their Army off of the Prussians (though in both cases they ended up with advisors from all over the place, like the US and Italy).

No evidence that they copied the British tradition for Pussers and regular rum rations.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rum_ration

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#59
post #7

I've spent about 3 years in India, through a combination of work and family, and rarely see anything called "curry" on menus. Part of what this author seems to be getting at is that "curry" reflects a colonial viewpoint that homogenizes groups outsite the west. Thus, Indians, Thais and Japanese food has "curries" (even though these curries are very different from one another). In contrast Hungarians have "Goulash."

"Curry" is used by Indians to describe freshly-made solid-ish vegetable/meat dishes that are always eaten with rice or flat breads like roti and parathas. They aren't eaten by themselves. They are also meant to be eaten hot. It's important that the "main event" is the carbs, with the curry accompanying them. This is both a broad and narrow definition. It's broad because you can make a curry out of any vegetable and any meat, with practically any spices. It's narrow because it has to solid-ish and be eaten with rice or flat breads. A soup like sambar or rasam mixed with rice isn't considered a curry, but it's not a soup per most people's standards either. A soup isn't a curry because it's not primarily eaten with rice or flat breads. A pickle isn't a curry because it might take months to be prepared; it's not meant to be eaten fresh. A mango chutney is not a curry because it's not meant to be eaten hot. (Note that the Indian definitions of "pickle" and "chutney" vary from the American/British usages. In India, a "pickle" is a preserved fruit/vegetable/meat in oil, chili powder, and other spices. A "chutney" is a freshly-made dish of diced fruits/veggies, often reduced to a paste with a blender.)

This is a sort of definition that's intuitive to Indians.

The problem Indians have with foreign usages of "curry" are, I think, with them not respecting this definition, and using the word to refer to pretty much all Indian food. "Going to get some curry" sounds like you don't care about even the basic differences in the cuisine you're eating. That all said, I understand that I'm undermining my own argument. It's rather subtle to tell a curry apart from another Indian dish.

Indian people eat plenty of things aside from rice/roti + curries. You have kebabs, biryanis (rice baked with meats), sandwiches (from Vada Pav street food to everything else), noodles (Indo-Chinese cuisine), a million buttery, saccharine sweets, unique breakfast foods like dosas and idlis, and so so much more. How can you have a country the size of India with at least 20 major cuisines and languages, in a country with influences from East Africa, Central Asia, Tibet, South East Asia, and Western Europe, without tremendous culinary diversity?

Re: Curry Before Columbus

#60
post #45

Just before the lockdown I threw away some hing that had been on my spice rack for a long time. Way longer than one should keep spices. So I went to the local spice shop to stock up on some items, including a fresh jar of asefetida. I had forgotten how pungent it is when fresh. Now when I open the cabinet it hits me.

Interesting! I have never heard of this particular spice before, although I may have already eaten it at an Indian restaurant. As to the "pungent" part, it's already in the name: > The English name is derived from asa, a latinised form of Persian azā, meaning "resin", and Latin foetidus meaning "smelling, fetid", which refers to its strong sulfurous odour The German names are even less flattering: > Asant (Ferula ass…

I only learned about it when attempting to cook Indian food via YouTube recipes. A game changer!
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