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The Fourth of July

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Re: The Fourth of July

#51

Post by benatkin »

hirundo wrote: post #40

There seems to be more hatred for this country, from within, than ever before in my life. This has been trending all day: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23FvckTheForth&src=trend_click Yet I still love it more than not. That seems to make me an "other" to so many of these people.

That isn't hatred for this country. That's a #hashtag.

If you look below the surface the sentiments of many of them seem to be similar to this excerpt from Frederick Douglass:

"Fellow Citizens, I am not wanting in respect for the fathers of this republic. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were brave men. They were great men, too, great enough to give frame to a great age. It does not often happen to a nation to raise, at one time, such a number of truly great men. The point from which I am compelled to view them is not, certainly, the most favorable; and yet I cannot contemplate their great deeds with less than admiration. They were statesmen, patriots and heroes, and for the good they did, and the principles they contended for, I will unite with you to honor their memory."

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2927t.html

He then goes on to say what's wrong with the fourth. I won't spoil it. It's worth reading and re-reading.

Re: The Fourth of July

#52

Post by missedthecue »

jessaustin wrote: post #28

A bit sentimental, but on holidays we can accept that. The bigger problem with this historical account is that it is incomplete. We Americans like to pretend that this story begins with WWII, when the evil Empire of Japan invaded those bucolic isles of the Philippines, whose brave residents were inspired by MacArthur to rise up against colonialism. In reality, this history began in 1898. Americans pretended to ally w…

The story began in 1898? Are you certain about that?

Re: The Fourth of July

#53

Post by throwvid19 »

acdha wrote: post #48
bJGVygG7MQVF8c wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Colin Kaepernick, on Twitter: > "Black ppl have been dehumanized, brutalized, criminalized + terrorized by America for centuries, & are expected to join your commemoration of “independence”, while you enslaved our ancestors. We reject your celebration of white supremacy & look forward to liberation for all. " Point of clarification: by "our ancestors" he's referring exclusively to his African-descended ancest…

You’re upset that he focused on the ones who were oppressed rather than the ones who were oppressing? Many Black people have white ancestors but ask how much of that was really consensual and how those children were treated.

Are you suggesting that Colin Kaepernick's mother was raped?

Re: The Fourth of July

#54

Post by myrandomcomment »

myrandomcomment wrote: post #2

As a father, a husband, a former soldier and an American, this brings a tear to my eye. “We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.” - Lincoln As an American I feel we are bound not by our failures of past moral…

Sorry for bad typing.

...but our need to fix them.

Re: The Fourth of July

#55

Post by projectileboy »

throwvid19 wrote: post #53
acdha wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re upset that he focused on the ones who were oppressed rather than the ones who were oppressing? Many Black people have white ancestors but ask how much of that was really consensual and how those children were treated.

Are you suggesting that Colin Kaepernick's mother was raped?

No, but previous ancestors. Rape of the enslaved was very common. The difference in skin tone between Africans and the majority of African-Americans is not because of something in the water.

Re: The Fourth of July

#56

Post by ihsw »

skybrian wrote: post #14
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing a statue of Lincoln defaced made me more sad than almost any of the other. If we can’t look to people like Lincoln as our heroes, then what type of hero do we really want?

I'm not sure we should necessarily read all that much into what gets graffiti. There are trolls everywhere, and it can be cleaned up.

Those trolls are running the Democratic party now.

Re: The Fourth of July

#57

Post by rayiner »

weiming wrote: post #42
myrandomcomment wrote: post #2

As a father, a husband, a former soldier and an American, this brings a tear to my eye. “We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.” - Lincoln As an American I feel we are bound not by our failures of past moral…

What me and my family talked about today is that, as immigrants, we are so sad how much the "native born" people of the US hate their own country. They seem to never waste an opportunity to remind others of their disdain and it is more and more visible these days e.g. in big news media or on Twitter. Makes me sad and I hope this can change.

My family is Bangladeshi immigrants and we have been talking about this lately too. My parents just moved into a new house, and yesterday my dad installed a big American flag. My parents are Democrats so they agree ideologically with CNN, etc., but even they’re getting sick of the over-the-top weeping and rending of clothes.

Re: The Fourth of July

#58

Post by jessaustin »

missedthecue wrote: post #52
jessaustin wrote: post #28

A bit sentimental, but on holidays we can accept that. The bigger problem with this historical account is that it is incomplete. We Americans like to pretend that this story begins with WWII, when the evil Empire of Japan invaded those bucolic isles of the Philippines, whose brave residents were inspired by MacArthur to rise up against colonialism. In reality, this history began in 1898. Americans pretended to ally w…

The story began in 1898? Are you certain about that?

I'm not aware of atrocities we committed in Philippines before that time?

Re: The Fourth of July

#59

Post by ncallaway »

hirundo wrote: post #40

There seems to be more hatred for this country, from within, than ever before in my life. This has been trending all day: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23FvckTheForth&src=trend_click Yet I still love it more than not. That seems to make me an "other" to so many of these people.

I love this country. But I hate this country.

I love the ideals that this nation was founded upon, but I hate that we've never lived up to those ideals.

I love that we've moved over time to make this a more perfect union—to move ever closer to those ideals; but I hate how slow this movement has been, and how long it has taken.

I would fight and die for this country if I needed to defend it, but I also want to spend most of my life fighting this nation to make it better.

Strong criticism of something doesn't mean that it's hated—it might mean that it's loved, but very very imperfect. The best way to celebrate the 4th of July—to me—is to reflect on the many ways that this union could be more perfect, and to work on moving us in that direction.

Re: The Fourth of July

#60

Post by AtHeartEngineer »

toby wrote: post #26
endgame wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things are too important to be mere paperwork, and need a ritual to mark them. Graduating university is where this range begins, and taking on the citizenship of another nation is definitely way above that.

Having done it I completely agree with you. There were a lot of frustrating hurdles over many years, but this was so much more than that and I'm really happy for the final ritual.

This should really be a tradition that all natural born Americans should have when they turn 18 also. I'm not necessarily about nationalism, that road can go down some dark paths, but it is really comforting to know you are a part of something bigger
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