Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired' • Hacker News Board

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#51

Post by metalgearsolid3 » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

dx87 wrote: post #10

okaythen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how racism isn't a personal choice?

People are tribal about anything they identify with, whether it's their race, local sports team, country of birth, etc. It's not okay to be racist, but it's also not something you can legislate away. You may as well try to outlaw getting angry at people, it'll be just as effective.

This doesn't make any sense to me considering an uncontrolled outburst of anger is the exact kind of thing that gets people punished by law.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#52

Post by RhysU » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:46 PM UTC

joshribakoff wrote: post #26

rootusrootus wrote: post #12

This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know where to start. I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least noticing . Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians at the workplace, bu…

> I try really hard to ignore color One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases…

The behavior you prescribe is itself a bias.

Can we please treat individuals as individuals instead of narrowly viewing others through whatever lenses we carry?

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#53

Post by hogFeast » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

mhoad wrote: post #4

cal5k wrote: post #3

This is a bit of an aside, but... What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves. I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude thi…

I don't know if this is an ungenerous reading of what you are saying or not but that sounded vaguely like racism is a fact of life and we should just deal with it. Am I misreading you on that? If not, what kind of approaches do you think would be more appropriate?

So you are saying something that has existed throughout all periods of time, in every society isn't a fact of life?

Also, speaking about racism particularly is something that makes very little sense historically. Racism has largely not been a problem because most societies weren't (and still aren't) multi-racial. The biggest issue has been religion and, more recently, class.

Both of these distinctions are arbitrary and should highlight that discrimination, not racism, is the problem and that is a fact of life. You will get discriminated against if you are disabled, if you have a Southern accent, if you are too short, if you are too tall, if you are too fat, if you aren't fat enough, etc. On and on forever. This is constant, it is human nature.

Btw, it is also worth saying that we largely have approaches that are effective. The only thing that history is really clear about is that constantly going over the past, seeking revenge/retribution, etc. doesn't work (many countries have gone down this route with power-sharing agreements due to religious/tribal conflict, it doesn't work). Equality means equality for all. Everyone is different. We all have to live with that. When you start from the basis that some people have an advantage/disadvantage because of their identity, the only way that ends is segregation and power-sharing agreements (usually after some period of terrorism/internal civil conflict). Everyone benefits from fairness, it isn't a race/religious/class issue.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#54

Post by networkimprov » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

staticautomatic wrote: post #42

joshribakoff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I try really hard to ignore color One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases…

So, it’s important to treat them...the way you should treat everyone. True statement. I think you’ll need to elaborate further on what the philosophical and semantic difference is between ignoring and noticing, because the outcome is the same in your example.

Intending to overcompensate is an effective method to actually treat them the way you should treat everyone.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#55

Post by atdt » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

This isn't going to be a popular sentiment here, but I think Ibrahim's experiences shows why diversity training is important. It's 2020; there is no reason for things like this happen:

> I've been to job interviews where the receptionist will take me to a whiteboard room. When the interviewer comes in, he'd say: "I'm sorry, you must be in the wrong room."

> I often get: "I couldn't tell where you are from on the phone."

I often hear complaints that diversity training is largely cosmetic and doesn't get at the root of the problem. To some extent that is true: teaching people not to act surprised when they encounter a black software engineer is an interim strategy while we all work on making diversity unsurprising (because commonplace). But as this op-ed shows, seemingly small foot-in-mouth "gaffs" can be surprisingly hurtful, and they are largely correctible with training. Such training is best understood as one component in what is (or ought to be) a broader social project — but it's an important component, especially now.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#56

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #9

amcoastal wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see these two ideas as mutually exclusive. While putting aside our tribal nature seems unlikely, it seems realistic to think we could do something that would let most people stop considering race when deciding which "tribe" someone may belong to. You see this difference as well, which is why you based your example of reasonable tribal behavior on someone's actions/experiences rather than their skin color. It…

So, off the top of my head two other kinds of in-group identity that have worked in the past are nationalism and religion. It seems those ideas aren’t so in favor right now, so how do we construct a sense of belonging that is truly positive?

[deleted]

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#57

Post by Edmond » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #24

>Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of the workforce Just raw extrapolation, this would indicate that (13-3.1)/13 or 76% of black folks in technology are either unemployed or not working in tech. Is that the case? If it is, then laying this…

Not sure where the author got his numbers from but if you read the full article, the author notes that the numbers/percentages themselves can be misleading, because that 3.1% could include the security guard who swipes your badge or some other peripheral role at a technology company.

It is also true that Blacks do in fact quit the industry at high rates due to bias treatment; based on the number of computer science and technology degrees granted to blacks, their representation should be higher if there was higher retention.

It is also the case that blacks in technology often end in up in specific sectors of the industry, for instance you'll find much higher black representation in the public sector, specifically in the federal government...unfortunately that is not likely to be the source of the next great tech innovator.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#58

Post by oh_sigh » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

dx87 wrote: post #10

okaythen wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how racism isn't a personal choice?

People are tribal about anything they identify with, whether it's their race, local sports team, country of birth, etc. It's not okay to be racist, but it's also not something you can legislate away. You may as well try to outlaw getting angry at people, it'll be just as effective.

The proposal would punish racist actions, not racist thoughts. You're free to like the Yankees more than the Mets, but you can't start giving out promotions to all your Yankee loving co-workers and none of your Mets loving coworkers for that reason.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#59

Post by zosima » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

davidgay wrote: post #47

andreygrehov wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is an interesting observation. If we take a look at how different nations are distributed across big cities, we can see that many neighborhoods are race specific. A lot of cities have chinese, jewish, russian, mexican, etc. neighborhoods, meaning that people _naturally_ want to live with _similar_ people. What's more important, it happens organically. It's not like some organization or government forces people t…

> _naturally_ want to live with _similar_ people You are forgetting that those kinds of neighborhoods have developed in part because other people have taken mild-to-extreme steps to prevent "those" people from living with them. Known steps in the US include at the very least: - rules preventing "those" people from living in some places - mild-to-extreme actions against "those" people when they move in - people leavin…

So all of these groups choose to live in separate neighborhoods, because they all are racist to each other?

Not because they want to be around people that are similar to themselves?

And the fact that the same pattern shows up basically everywhere. In Africa, Asia, Europe, North America and to some extent South America, does not change your perception?

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#60

Post by cgriswald » Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

cal5k wrote: post #29

catalogia wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anger is a choice, at least to a limited extent. Managing ones emotions is a skill that can be honed with practice, if you're willing to make the effort. I don't say this to nitpick your point. I just think it's worth saying since some people may not realize they have a choice.

It's not a choice at all. You don't choose to feel angry, but you can choose how you respond to it (often with great difficulty). Similarly, I have never seen evidence to suggest that the strong desire to associate with people like you (on one of many dimensions) can be eliminated. You do, however, get to decide how to act on that desire - likely to perpetually imperfect results as is the case with anger. I've let an…

Do the things that angered you when you were five years old still anger you now? Hopefully not. It’s not just because you’ve grown up. It’s because you think differently than you did when you were five. You’ve also learned that in many contexts anger isn’t worth it. So you’ve stopped being angry about it.

People like to imagine it’s the stimulus that makes us angry. “Of course I’m angry! That guy cut me off! He made me angry!” That guy has no access to your internal state except the access you give him. He performed an action. It’s obviously not the action that made someone angry or we’d all get angry when that happens. Yet we don’t. For those who get angry it’s their thoughts about the action that “made them angry.” We make these choices frequently over time (often on autopilot or subconsciously) and seldom attempt to choose otherwise. So it feels innate, like something out of our control that just happens. That might be true of a child and there are certainly some innate biases from evolution, but that doesn’t mean it’s out of our hands.

None of this is to say it’s easy to change those thoughts nor that it can be done on a whim. It’s also not to say that anger isn’t understandable in many contexts or to unempathetically wash our hands of others feelings. It’s also not to excuse unacceptable behaviors in others.

It is to say that, yes, how we feel is very much our choice.