Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation” • Hacker News Board

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#51

Post by TomMarius » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:59 AM UTC

rrtthu wrote: post #47

laser wrote: post #18

From a purely national interest standpoint, it's hardly surprising the US would be uninterested in negotiations given the fact it's the global digital products leader. While it's certainly true some such rules are worthwhile at the minimum tax level to stop global mega-corps avoiding taxes, like the old Double Irish loophole [1], the negotiations didn't break down over such provision, as the article mentions. The neg…

The logic of the tax is "a product consumed on a territory is subject to tax in said territory". Saying this is akin to an import tax is like saying the VAT is an import tax.

VAT taxes the final consumer.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#52

Post by NicoJuicy » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 10:00 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #49

NicoJuicy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know this, but Europe has no trust in the US under Trump. How can you not see that they are waiting till trust re-appears. 1 example: If Europe would really partner up, Trump would require Russia to be in the table ( G7). The current situation is nuts and it's not Europe's fault. Ps. Trump has no interest in peace and prosperity. Haven't you been paying attention? The US has never been this divided and the cur…

How is it not Europe's fault? When it comes to digital businesses it's almost entirely Europe's fault. It's European countries that have been trying left and right to somehow squeeze more money out of largely American digital businesses. From the new digital taxes in France and Italy to the Google News row in Germany and Spain. This stuff started by Europe way before Trump ever entered the picture.

> squeeze more money out of largely American digital businesses

It's European money, that is taxed. Not money earned outside of the country.

American corporations squeezing money out of European countries would be a more accurate description.

Basic economic insight :)

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#53

Post by Mirioron » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 10:03 AM UTC

boudin wrote: post #28

LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. I also think they should call this a digital tax or apply it only to digital services. I understand that’s where the biggest impact will be felt but a minimum corporation tax rate shouldn’t depend on business type and I dislike the idea people are free to target companies for being “too su…

There is already different tax regimes based on business type, it's not something new. I personally think it's a good idea. Our current tax regime has not been thought for this kind of business. Businesses like Google are something totally new, trying to apply the current tax system on it just doesn't work. I find it perfectly logical to create a new tax system that is a better fit, will stop this cat and mouse game…

But they already do contribute to those countries. This is simply protectionism plus at work. Squeeze more money out of foreign companies operating locally, because you can. It'll just lead to the world becoming clustered again like before. We're already seeing it happening with the internet - China is already apart from the rest of the world. Russia has been testing the same thing. Europe is essentially trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world by making rules nobody else has. The trend is moving towards separation, which also means that everyone will have to figure out their own technology.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#54

Post by LatteLazy » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 10:04 AM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #46

redis_mlc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not well-understood by the general public, but Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability. If you don't know what or where he will be next, how do you counter him? Reagan kept the Soviet Union off balance to the point of dissolving it. He's considered one of America's greatest statesman today, but called a clown by the elites at the time. The CCP should be concerned about the same fate if they trifl…

Trump's power as a statesman is that he doesn't feel the need to ride a horse. Starace rode a horse. Reagan rode a horse. Putin rode a horse. Le Pen rode a horse. Kim rode a horse. Kadyrov rode a horse. Johnson sat on a horse. Bolsonaro rode a horse. Do you ever see Trump on a horse? No, that's unpredictability for you. He doesn't need to do what the cool kids do. He's a leader, not a follower.

Trump has been exceptionally predictable. He's unreliable as an ally, he has no plan on any subject, but he'll do anything for a dollar or a flattering headline. That's it. You think Putin is predictable because he did a horse photoshoot? Jesus.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#55

Post by NicoJuicy » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 10:06 AM UTC

noir-york wrote: post #48

NicoJuicy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm European too. The thing about democracy is, it's a slow process. Currently the best thing is to wait till November and China knows that. They are exploiting the situation, but in contrast. I think the "one road, one belt" will fail if they continue their exploitive behaviour. Taiwan is not an easy topic right now, because it's a bit too early. Since Western democracy under Trump is not United :( As soon as we can…

Trump is a moron - threatening to withdraw US troops out of Germany is a gift to Russia. But the EU cannot wait for Trump to go away because if he wins reelection that could be 5 years away. We don't have that time. The EU needs to work with what its got - work with India, Australia, PacRim countries. The problem is that the EU is itself split with different interests. Someone has to provide leadership. The US presid…

The only sane option currently would be to exclude Trump.

But that would cause additional problems because of his ego and childish behaviour. So the best thing currently, is still too wait. It will happen if Trump gets re-elected.

It's not easy for someone new to step-up immediately as the so-called leader of Western democracy.

We all know that Obama and Merkel were potentials/it and Trump isn't. We'll c.

Ps. I think the current/best move to counter China already started. But it seems to bit below the radar currently.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#56

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 10:07 AM UTC

redis_mlc wrote: post #21

NicoJuicy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point. Because of Trump, US allies have to guard more corners than before. It's a serious problem and I think Trump is actually giving Russia/China an unfair advantage. He has already destroyed the Asian partnerships against China that Obama started, he also got out of numerous Western partnerships because it wasn't his signature on it. I would say that the problem is not Europe, it's 100% Trump.…

This is not well-understood by the general public, but Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability. If you don't know what or where he will be next, how do you counter him? Reagan kept the Soviet Union off balance to the point of dissolving it. He's considered one of America's greatest statesman today, but called a clown by the elites at the time. The CCP should be concerned about the same fate if they trifl…

[deleted]

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#57

Post by dogma1138 » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 10:08 AM UTC

rrtthu wrote: post #47

laser wrote: post #18

From a purely national interest standpoint, it's hardly surprising the US would be uninterested in negotiations given the fact it's the global digital products leader. While it's certainly true some such rules are worthwhile at the minimum tax level to stop global mega-corps avoiding taxes, like the old Double Irish loophole [1], the negotiations didn't break down over such provision, as the article mentions. The neg…

The logic of the tax is "a product consumed on a territory is subject to tax in said territory". Saying this is akin to an import tax is like saying the VAT is an import tax.

This is a gross revenue tax levied on the providers those services already collect VAT.

This isn’t in any shape or form comparable to VAT this is an import tariff.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#58

Post by NicoJuicy » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 10:12 AM UTC

noir-york wrote: post #38

fxtentacle wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, it reads like they wanted to discuss the rules for the new order, but then the US suspended talks over what might be called greed.

I was replying to the point about why EU and the US should form an alliance against China - and the reason being the wider geostrategic context.

But he is correct. US withdrew current alliances, so the trust to create new ones is partially gone.

There is a reason that the next president will have to restore trust to the US as world leader and will have a tougher job than normal.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#59

Post by Mirioron » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

endymi0n wrote: post #9

smabie wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with that? Countries need to compete just like corporations. Small countries need someway to compete for global talent, and low taxes are a good incentive.

I would be even siding with you slightly if this amounted to actually moving people, facilities and capital to that country. However, in the modern world, corporations don't just use low taxes to simply route massive amounts of capital through low-tax countries without a net benefit for anyone — they are actually exploiting tax loopholes in different countries' tax laws against each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

But these both clearly benefit Ireland and the Netherlands. Many of the major international corporations in the EU are set up in Ireland. Do you think that would be the case if Ireland couldn't attract them with the better tax offers? Ireland even had a referendum that initially rejected the Lisbon Treaty until Ireland got guarantees from the EU that it wouldn't affect their taxation.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#60

Post by 0xfaded » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 10:18 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #45

laser wrote: post #18

From a purely national interest standpoint, it's hardly surprising the US would be uninterested in negotiations given the fact it's the global digital products leader. While it's certainly true some such rules are worthwhile at the minimum tax level to stop global mega-corps avoiding taxes, like the old Double Irish loophole [1], the negotiations didn't break down over such provision, as the article mentions. The neg…

The worst part about taxes like this is that they make it even harder for Europe to ever catch up. Taxes like this will make Europe a less attractive location for a business like that. Investors will be less likely to invest, there's a greater regulatory burden for anyone who does want to start the business, and you will and up paying more in taxes.

Europe has VAT, which from a simplified perspective means that businesses don't directly pay any consumption tax, but have to charge VAT on the value of the goods and services sold to consumers.

So for purchases within Europe, the end consumer is already paying a 25% tax on the digital services provided by google.

But for good and services sold outside the EU, and remember that Europe have export driven philosophies, there is essentially no government revenue from foreign digital services.

Europe deserves compensation for buying American digital services in the same way America deserves compensation for buying German cars. It doesn't. Instead it needs to focus on a more competitive business environment where the money is cycled more times through the economy before ultimately making it's way to the government.