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Against Cop Shit

jeffreymoro.com

51–60 of 73 posts

Re: Against Cop Shit

#51
It's always interesting to note the whiggish, egalitarian overtones of the origins of the American public education system, as argued by one of its founding proponents, Horace Mann. The system was designed to teach children from all backgrounds the three Rs: reading, 'riting (sic), 'rithmetic (sic).

But even here, one wonders what results from diverging from the classical medieval trivium, which were grammar, logic and rhetoric. These were to form the foundational basis for the upper arts, arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy, and the seven liberal arts combined were to form the basis for studying philosophy and theology.

It would be one thing for me to anachronistically pine back to the medieval way of education, but I can't help but be curious about what we lost out on through our own factory optimized, parallel reconstruction of an education system. The system seems now to serve first as daycare and only very distantly second as means to teach foundational thinking skills.

As such, I can't help but consider an alternate universe where we actually built such an egalitarian education system that begins with grammar, logic and rhetoric, then arithmetic, geometry, music and astronomy, then philosophy and theology. My college experience involved very small class sizes taught in a discursive seminar style rather than the lecture style, and I really learned to think there. I can't help but wish that we had a system that had similar priorities. And I can't help but wonder if such a system would more deeply resolve issues that surface level fixes (such as plagiarism detection tech) only seem to distract from.

Re: Against Cop Shit

#52

Haha I just vouched it back from the grave... [EDIT:]... and now it's [flagged] again. I suspect flaggers may not have actually read TFA. It was published in February, so it doesn't specifically refer to recent public demonstrations. It's pretty clear which side the author would take...

This is an extremely important topic. OP I think you are sort of shooting yourself (and the topic) in the foot with the use of "shit" -- can you not use a more descriptive word please?

"Cop shit" is excellent idiomatic English for conveying what they mean. The title is clear, accurate, and attention-getting.

My general experience is that people who get wrapped around the axle over a word also wouldn't have engaged with the topic if a different word were chosen.

Re: Against Cop Shit

#53

Haha I just vouched it back from the grave... [EDIT:]... and now it's [flagged] again. I suspect flaggers may not have actually read TFA. It was published in February, so it doesn't specifically refer to recent public demonstrations. It's pretty clear which side the author would take...

This is an extremely important topic. OP I think you are sort of shooting yourself (and the topic) in the foot with the use of "shit" -- can you not use a more descriptive word please?

I used the title the author of the article gave it. I generally try to do that when submitting, unless there is a very very good reason not to -- e.g. it's something completely incomprehensible to someone who isn't a regular reader of that specific site.

Re: Against Cop Shit

#54
I was a graduate student teacher too. The biggest difference to me about teaching in university is that everyone in the classroom wants to be there — or at least cares enough about their parents to fake it. How could they not? It costs thousands.

Secondary schools, however, are prisons for our youth, so that their parents can go to work. Something like half of the people don't want to be there on any one day. So how are we supposed to keep children forcibly confined without cop shit? This is all well and good if education is the goal of school, but people who don't want to learn do a really good job of not learning. We confine them anyway. We pass laws requiring them to be there. We make our children get written permission from their wardens to go to the toilet, but at least they get an hour out in the yard^W quad, right?

I think that all of this institutional dehumanization is harmful, like the author does. But I think that unless you let people leave, particularly the disruptive students, you can't run a school this way.

Of course, if we don't dehumanize our kids in school, we run the risk that they won't work for dehumanizing employers in the future either. When you reach university, no one makes you beg to use the toilet, no one cares if you miss a class. You're in the elite now. But for the rest of the workforce, well, you had better have an good written excuse for being sick.

Re: Against Cop Shit

#55
post #47
post #20

This is the kind of stuff you can believe in if you haven't been a student at a bad public school. There are students who for the sake of their classmates (to say nothing of the teachers' sanity) absolutely have to be handled with "cop shit" because they won't respond to anything else and will disrupt not only their own class, but every nearby class too.

Those kids need better outlets, and more support; cop shit turns it into a power struggle that entrenches their adversarial mindset. Source: I went to a "bad" public school, take issue with abusive authority, and had a mix of bad-cop and supportive teachers. It's the supportive teachers who rolled their eyes and moved on from my antics, and rewarded efforts I put into the class (regardless if they were trollish misin…

The disruptive students I'm thinking of were basically juvenile delinquents, not future math PhDs who trolled on homework sometimes. The girl who dropped acid in economics class, the girl who peed on the floor in math class, the guy who beat the shit out of another guy in the cafeteria, the two girls who were literally ripping each other's hair out in the hallway until my history teacher pulled them off of each other. There weren't that many of them, but in a class of 30 students a single one of them (just 3%) can guarantee no one learns anything.

Re: Against Cop Shit

#56
"Plagiarism detection software" can most certainly be misused and abused - it's quite a slippery slope, difficult to administer fairly, and likely to create unwarranted chilling effects. The author was almost certainly referring to its ease and accessibility for misuse by educational authorities.

For example - citing inconclusive results from a plagiarism detection suite as a reason to have a meeting with a student or group, would induce large amounts of anxiety and stress is most people, even if the professors intention is that 90% of cases would be thrown out after the student/group testifies. It can lead to infighting in groups in particular, even when no cheating occurs. And the in person meeting is almost certainly rather stressful for most students.

And how many educational authorities are quick to jump to judgement and words like "just admit you did it, and we'll punish you less?" Presumption of guilt is the most reliable way to sow distrust and discord, and yet it is often done by lay people, whose negative actions are amplified by their positions of authority.

Underage students in particular should not be expected to react reasonably under such adversarial circumstances.

And even if the law and society expects it, I'd argue that most adults cannot handle novel adversarial circumstances well. Police interactions, and interactions with educational authorities over matters of discipline and cheating are most certainly novel, adversarial, and hugely stressful for most people, and it is done for remarkably little gain in terms of actually catching cheating, practically speaking.

To tie it off - I've been accused of cheating twice in my academic career.

Once when I was in 6th grade, when the assistant principle and a police officer pulled me into an isolated meeting and gaslighted me to confess to my guilt for 30 minutes. In the end, they "realized" they had pulled aside the wrong student. And then, that 2nd student they pulled aside had also turned out to have not been cheating. Such gross incompetence and psychological abuse should never be allowed to happen to children going through the most formative experiences in their life.

The 2nd time, my undergrad group was called to a meeting with one week's worth of notice, that our code had been flagged by plagiarism software, and that we would have to testify if we had cheated or not, or risk having a 0. My partner was a miserable wreck for that entire week. Turns out, when we got there, the code had just flagged some unimportant boiler plate code as having been copied from somewhere else. Not even the part of the code that actually solves for the problem, just the code that initialize variables and classes. The professor was apologetic, but that week of torment was for naught.

Both of these instances were in well regarded, well funded public schools, in the heart of the California Bay Area. I imagine it would be even worse in less well off areas, and geographies where education is not taken seriously.

The article is most certainly referring to instances of it being sloppily and maliciously used in ways to intimidate students, even if plagiarism detection tech can be used in a responsible manner. If the technology requires rigorous ethical training and screening to be used by authorities properly, which is often not provided to any reasonable degree, then it should not be used at all. I would rather every cheater be let go, than have 10 innocent kids be tormented and punished for a wrong they never committed.

Re: Against Cop Shit

#57
I'm a working teacher (college) and so is my wife (high school). I agree that adversarial is, the great majority of the time, counter productive. Working with students is way better than working against them. Besides, you have to look at yourself in the mirror and think, "Am I really that person?"

I will say, though, that when you are in a meeting and claims are being made by the student and by the parents that the instructor is completely at fault, and you can produce a computer accounting showing that the student spent less than five minutes on this week's assignment, ... well there is definitely a sense of thinking that tracking isn't entirely downsides.

Re: Against Cop Shit

#58
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh cool, so we just need to fix a massive social problem that's generated by long-running structural trends within our society and economy. Then we can stop using plagiarism detection software.

... So we shouldn't try to fix the problem?

Of course we should, but we shouldn't be naive about the challenge doing so represents.

Re: Against Cop Shit

#59
post #44

I think it's important to draw some distinction between primary, secondary, and post-secondary education. In primary school I am 100% for focusing on learning, and limiting the bureaucracy around it to only that which furthers the goal of learning. Punishing tardiness or unexplained absences doesn't make much sense, but noticing it does, because improving attendance is a worthy goal in pursuit of learning. When you g…

Nah. The customer model is frequently corrosive to mission-driven organizations. Imagine it in medicine, for example. If I asked my doctor to prescribe me morphine because I'm the customer and I want it, they'd refuse. They should. Education has a deep societal purpose, especially in democracies and advanced economies. Its consumers are generally immature, and are definitionally people who are ignorant about importan…

"What the [parents] want" may not be the best model for education, but it's certainly not the worst in regular use. Actually, that's true in medicine as well.

Re: Against Cop Shit

#60

This author categorizes plagiarism detection and rigorous learning experiences along with "any interface with actual cops". This is under the blanket presumption that all of these things "[presume] an adversarial relationship between students and teachers", which is fundamentally wrong. He is, by his own admission in the post, an inexperienced teacher. He also does not appear to be a parent. I think he should get a l…

What? The author says he's a graduate student (consequently very likely a TA) with a 7-year old daughter.

The daughter is his stylist's, not his.
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