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Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

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Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#51

Post by arexxbifs »

aspaviento wrote: post #32
arexxbifs wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whats the state of Linux on the desktop in 2020? Pretty decent for anyone who can tolerate default Gnome and has the right hardware. So, no, still not ready to be a drop-in Windows replacement for casual users. > What distribution do you recommend for a normal person to use? What's normal? Normal HN reader? Probably Debian-nonfree, which has all the good parts of Ubuntu and almost none of the bad. Soccer mom pinter…

> Soccer mom pinterest poster though? Windows or Mac. Why? If she is going to use the browser almost exclusively, she wouldn't even notice what OS she is using.

Because it's far more likely she'll run into some kind of problem with hardware or software incompatibility. And why does her computer make such a noise when she's watching Youtube and Netflix? And why did her touchpad suddenly stop behaving like it used to after a system upgrade?

There are problems with Windows and Mac for casual users too, but it'd be sugarcoating things to say that Linux isn't far more likely to spuriously act up.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#52

Post by xalava »

ur-whale wrote: post #14

Super happy finally to see someone call out backward compatibility (around 31:20) Linux is terrible on this axis, way worse than Windows. EDIT: and statically linking your app doesn't cut it. First, it's barely possible to do that with "modern" glibc. Second, glibc itself breaks old apps.

I've run into the problem a few times, trying to run an old version of a software for research purposes. But for daily usage, this misses the concept of open source.

Most decades old software is still maintained, rebuild and packaged by every distribution. You can't easily run a 30 years old program, but you can run its latest version, for free.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#53

Post by _y5hn »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #37
foobar_ wrote: post #2

Reasons start ~ 30 min mark. Linux backward compatibility really sucks. I still don't understand why fedora binaries can't run that easily on debian.

Huh? Running against a different set of shared libraries? - it has nothing to do with "backward" compatibility - it has nothing to do with Linux. If you change shared libraries with incompatible versions software will break on windows and bsd as well

It's time to remind people again that "Linux" isn't one OS. At best it's kernel source that you get to compile for different architectures. There are distributions ("distros") that package up different sets of kernel, kernel parameters, modules, libraries, utilities, config and glue-scripts, though none of them actually claim backwards or cross-binary compatibility, unless for their own (ie. within major RHELS versions).

It could be nice to not have to worry about all that compatibility and even some upgrade-issues that inevitably ensue. Though the costs can quickly outweigh the benefits, ie. as in the awfulness of "snap" and similar.

Windows do have compatibility and emulation layers, though some older software may still have some issues, it often works. Security-wise it's a good idea to keep patches and upgrades fresh.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#55

Post by onli »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #37
foobar_ wrote: post #2

Reasons start ~ 30 min mark. Linux backward compatibility really sucks. I still don't understand why fedora binaries can't run that easily on debian.

Huh? Running against a different set of shared libraries? - it has nothing to do with "backward" compatibility - it has nothing to do with Linux. If you change shared libraries with incompatible versions software will break on windows and bsd as well

That has everything to do with backwards compatibility. You have one piece of software made for an old linux target that does not run anymore on modern Linux. Heck, most of the Feral games don't run on my Linux because they rely on shared libs that my system does not have, and those aren't even old!

And it's only Linux that has that problem in that dimension. Windows just kept everything around. Other systems don't evolve as much as Linux has, and they do not have the distribution differences that kill compatibility on Linux.

AppImage is great and solves that problem. It should be used more.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#56

Post by zzzcpan »

fluffything wrote: post #30
ur-whale wrote: post #14

Super happy finally to see someone call out backward compatibility (around 31:20) Linux is terrible on this axis, way worse than Windows. EDIT: and statically linking your app doesn't cut it. First, it's barely possible to do that with "modern" glibc. Second, glibc itself breaks old apps.

glibc is not what I would use for statically linking musl works just fine for that

We are not there yet. Musl works great for new projects sure, people should definitely default to it instead of glibc. But a lot of existing software doesn't just work with it, sometimes requiring way too much work and expertise to get there. I completely gave up trying to use it on arm for example, or rather on anything non-amd64, and on amd64 most software had to be patched to even compile with musl.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#57

Post by throwaway91914 »

onli wrote: post #55
eeZah7Ux wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Running against a different set of shared libraries? - it has nothing to do with "backward" compatibility - it has nothing to do with Linux. If you change shared libraries with incompatible versions software will break on windows and bsd as well

That has everything to do with backwards compatibility. You have one piece of software made for an old linux target that does not run anymore on modern Linux. Heck, most of the Feral games don't run on my Linux because they rely on shared libs that my system does not have, and those aren't even old! And it's only Linux that has that problem in that dimension. Windows just kept everything around. Other systems don't e…

You don't understand the definition of backward compatibility.

There are examples of binaries written against a UNIX kernel from 30 years ago that run just fine.

If you start adding dependencies on libraries you are choosing to have one of these problems:

- use dynamic libraries and refuse to cooperate with maintainers and things will break, rightfully so

- use dynamic libraries and the OS keep them around forever and it will become a security dumpster fire over time (and also will never scale down to embedded systems and phones)

- use dynamic libraries and ship them in a tarball and it will become a security dumpster fire over time

- use static libraries and it will become a security dumpster fire over time, plus it's even more difficult to tell what libraries are used

- use dynamic libraries and ship them with docker or appimage or similar and it will become a security dumpster fire over time, plus you have unnecessary complexity

- use dynamic libraries and package your stuff properly. Target LTS releases. Most good distributions will guarantee 5 years of stability of all the dependencies without version changes. Plus you get free backported security fixes and free testing.

> And it's only Linux that has that problem in that dimension

Not at all.

> AppImage is great and solves that problem. It should be used more.

Not at all.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#58

Post by hyperman1 »

arexxbifs wrote: post #12
kgraves wrote: post #5

Whats the state of Linux on the desktop in 2020? What distribution do you recommend for a normal person to use?

> Whats the state of Linux on the desktop in 2020? Pretty decent for anyone who can tolerate default Gnome and has the right hardware. So, no, still not ready to be a drop-in Windows replacement for casual users. > What distribution do you recommend for a normal person to use? What's normal? Normal HN reader? Probably Debian-nonfree, which has all the good parts of Ubuntu and almost none of the bad. Soccer mom pinter…

I've given quite a few debian laptops to different normal/ computer illiterate users. There are snags, but not more than on windows.

The people who have trouble are the power users. None of the more advanced tricks work anymore, everything is different and weird, and they dont want to relearn from scratch.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#59

Post by ttz »

Linux sucks up your time, yes. But once it's setup, it's unparalleled, if you can stand minor GUI annoyances.

However, the set of people willing to invest that time to reach that stage of setup that I'm aware of, is currently only me. The other professional linux users in my circle are dual booters, hobbyists, or use it through ssh off a Mac/PC.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#60

Post by 7532yahoogmail »

mattbillenstein wrote: post #6

I watched this a couple weeks ago and it just seems to have so little information density - like this guy talks and talks and talks and the actual content is like 15 minutes of this.

Agree. The guy needs to get a room with himself, get over it, and come back with something to say. Linux also isn't for desk tops by and large.
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