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Dust in the Light

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Re: Dust in the Light

#51

Post by DoreenMichele »

nogenerix wrote: post #50
in_cahoots wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lenders for white neighborhoods formed explicit covenants to keep blacks out. White people chose to live in those neighborhoods and voted for lawmakers who supported redlining and other segregationist measures. They didn’t speak up for their black neighbors with less opportunity. For decades they have been silent and complicit as they live in their white neighborhoods and build generational wealth that has been d…

Sounds racist to say that black communities need access to white communities in order to create positive outcomes. Why can't the black communities stand on their own?

Because they tried that and white assholes burned "Black Wall Street" to the ground. Then (whites in power) promptly began changing building codes to prevent them from rebuilding on the theory that it burnt to the ground not because crazy racist assholes torched it but because it was a slum not built to adequate standards.

Re: Dust in the Light

#52

Post by frakkingcylons »

clairity wrote: post #42
frakkingcylons wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it claims more significance for this mechanism than, you know, masses of people marching on the streets Sure, seeing large marches are great at grabbing attention, but seeing actual video evidence of police brutality is _much_ more persuasive. Now almost everyone has high-def cameras, and the ability to stream live to everyone (so people will see it even if the police take/destroy your phone). I think that makes a…

> "Sure, seeing large marches are great at grabbing attention, but seeing actual video evidence of police brutality is _much_ more persuasive." again, for you . the people marching didn't need to see the video to be angry and mobilize for change. they were already angry, a long-simmering anger of an even longer and more widely tolerated injustice and oppression. when people protest, we should listen to them , believe…

Yes the people marching don't need to see the video, but the unfortunate reality is you DO have to convince everyone else. That's why the attitudes of non-black people towards police brutality are have shifted significantly in the past 10 years [0], at least in my opinion. I'm not saying there should have to be video in order for victims of police violence to be believed, but the larger public won't start believing it otherwise. That's my belief on why the marches we're seeing since Floyd's murder involve more non-black people.

[0]: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-lots-of-white-democ...

Re: Dust in the Light

#53

Post by disease »

dmode wrote: post #29

I love Ben Thompson's writing and I like how he accurately connects the history of institutional racism to the events of today. I have seen a few articles of this kind, and it seems like in today's America vast majority of people (except a few Trump holdouts) have acknowledged that the historical arc of slavery to segregation to white flight to real estate discrimination has led to where we are. However, what I don't…

Economic parity would go a long way towards solving these problems, I don't think they can happen before white racial resentment is solved. It's interesting that so many working class whites are so willing to vote against their own economic self interest - particular where the possibility of raising the levels of working class blacks is concerned. Last Place Aversion is a very real thing it seems.

Re: Dust in the Light

#54

Post by luckylion »

dang wrote: post #39
vincentmarle wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, it’s impossible to have adult conversations about anything other than tech on HN.

By posting that, you make it more so, and actually it is far from true. We should do things to help develop the discourse here, not kick it. The container is fragile. I believe that when the community gets this sort of inaccurate reflection of itself, it encourages a "why bother" sentiment and, downstream from that, a "fuck you" sentiment, since if no one is communicating anyhow, what else does it make sense to say?…

> I believe when the community gets this sort of deeply inaccurate reflection of itself, it encourages a "why bother" sentiment

Tbh though, on some topics, "why bother" is accurate. You can write a comment that is controversial, but it will be heavily downvoted and flagged, so indeed: why bother?

The Overton Window on HN isn't as large as it appears, but it's generally accepted that you can say what you want as long as it's within these narrow limits.

What you're saying about the shock value of encountering different opinions for the first time is probably true (for some more so than others, I believe), but it doesn't change the issue that, on controversial topics, actually engaging the outraged and offering a different point of view does not seem useful. After a bunch of unspoken "fuck you" flags, "why bother" is what's keeping the site civil. If people are emotional and cannot be reached by words, don't try to talk to them unless you want to fight them. "Why bother" is deescalation.

Re: Dust in the Light

#55

Post by ithinkinstereo »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #51
nogenerix wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds racist to say that black communities need access to white communities in order to create positive outcomes. Why can't the black communities stand on their own?

Because they tried that and white assholes burned "Black Wall Street" to the ground. Then (whites in power) promptly began changing building codes to prevent them from rebuilding on the theory that it burnt to the ground not because crazy racist assholes torched it but because it was a slum not built to adequate standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

There were no convictions for any of the charges related to violence. There were decades of silence about the terror, violence, and losses of this event. The riot was largely omitted from local, state, and national histories: "The Tulsa race riot of 1921 was rarely mentioned in history books, classrooms or even in private. Blacks and whites alike grew into middle age unaware of what had taken place." It was not recognized in the Tulsa Tribune feature of "Fifteen Years Ago Today" or "Twenty-five Years Ago Today". A 2017 report detailing the history of the Tulsa Fire Department from 1897 until the date of publication makes no mention of the 1921 fire.

Re: Dust in the Light

#56

Post by in_cahoots »

nogenerix wrote: post #50
in_cahoots wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lenders for white neighborhoods formed explicit covenants to keep blacks out. White people chose to live in those neighborhoods and voted for lawmakers who supported redlining and other segregationist measures. They didn’t speak up for their black neighbors with less opportunity. For decades they have been silent and complicit as they live in their white neighborhoods and build generational wealth that has been d…

Sounds racist to say that black communities need access to white communities in order to create positive outcomes. Why can't the black communities stand on their own?

I’m not going to spell it out for you because I don’t think you are interested in learning. If you really want to know the answer to this question, then go to a school in a poor black community. Visit their libraries, hospitals, and grocery stores. Then do the same for nearby white communities. Go do the work and educate yourself. Separate but equal is not equal.

Re: Dust in the Light

#57

Post by clairity »

zamfi wrote: post #48
clairity wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, see that's exactly the misestimation afforded by insulation. we've had protests and rebellions recently and for millenia without social media influence. it's just not a required feature of masses of people being angry at injustice.

Sure, and we’ve had race riots in the past too. But when was the last time we had this level of protest in support of a minority group? The million man march? And that required how much organization in comparison? No one is arguing that it’s a required feature for masses of people being angry at injustice. What they’re arguing is that it changes which injustices are visible.

> "But when was the last time we had this level of protest in support of a minority group?"

so injustice doesn't matter when it's just minorities, only when some (presumably white) people "support" them?

> "What they’re arguing is that it changes which injustices are visible."

...to him. the injustices are painfully apparent to the population affected.

look, all things being equal, it's better that he's now startled out of ignorance by a tragic and now-sensationalized video of someone's death, but sorry, that's not the central mechanism of change here.

Re: Dust in the Light

#58

Post by cronix »

scarface74 wrote: post #6
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #3

> And no matter what upheaval lies ahead, I am certain that the light that illuminates that dust so brightly can never be put away. There are no more gatekeepers, oftentimes for worse, but also for better. I am not so sanguine. People in power all over the world are seeing the threat to their power from the Internet and working to curtail it. China is probably the most ahead, but I am sure everyone else is hard at wo…

Yes and HN users are the first to want more government regulation over tech. The current administration is already trying to “shut down Twitter”. Edit Citation: https://www.newsday.com/long-island/politics/trump-twitter-f...

I think the problem is the select enforcement of the ever-changing rules and not applying them equally across the board, which is getting blatantly obvious on twitter, reddit, etc. There are hundreds of examples, probably more, of tweets promoting violence being allowed to stay up, unaltered. Here's just one simple example of a tweet from a reporter directly violating Twitters policies and inciting violence telling people to "burn that shit down, burn it all down" and being allowed to stay up: https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1267127192330346500

Please look at the Presidents original tweet that got labeled and logically compare it to that one and justify why one should be labeled and the other stay up unscathed.

Of course this same journalist quickly changed his tune when they came to his own upper-income gated neighborhood (2nd pic in above tweet) and started calling them "animals."

Re: Dust in the Light

#59

Post by scarface74 »

cronix wrote: post #58
scarface74 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and HN users are the first to want more government regulation over tech. The current administration is already trying to “shut down Twitter”. Edit Citation: https://www.newsday.com/long-island/politics/trump-twitter-f...

I think the problem is the select enforcement of the ever-changing rules and not applying them equally across the board, which is getting blatantly obvious on twitter, reddit, etc. There are hundreds of examples, probably more, of tweets promoting violence being allowed to stay up, unaltered. Here's just one simple example of a tweet from a reporter directly violating Twitters policies and inciting violence telling p…

So how do you propose that a government that can’t police fairly, regulate speech fairly?

When geeks (of course not used an insult I am a huge one) didn’t like the status quo when it came to the dominant software platforms, they created their own alternatives. If conservatives don’t like the platforms that are available - they can create their own.

Re: Dust in the Light

#60

Post by f1refly »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #51
nogenerix wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds racist to say that black communities need access to white communities in order to create positive outcomes. Why can't the black communities stand on their own?

Because they tried that and white assholes burned "Black Wall Street" to the ground. Then (whites in power) promptly began changing building codes to prevent them from rebuilding on the theory that it burnt to the ground not because crazy racist assholes torched it but because it was a slum not built to adequate standards.

Sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory to me
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