How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#51

Post by aSplash0fDerp » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

This really has become a convoluted issue about identity, coming from the perspective of a caucasion male.

Having no direct or indirect involvement with "class warfare" and "culture clashes", I think most individuals are trusting that government representatives (who many want to vote out anyways) will not milk a crisis for every penny, but instead inact meaningful reform.

Once we see autonomous delivery of work (physical production, not digital) spread in the developed world, it will be a great relief knowing that everybody can make a living without having to interact with groups that choose not to (if they desire).

The solution will provide a safety net for everyone (females, single parents, working aged adults, etc) and keep the emotions out of the equation.

Its already sickening...

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#52

Post by wbronitsky » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #34

mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

> I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. I don't think this is a good thing. The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence, not to appease angry protesters and to attempt to quell…

This reply elides the fact that there are quite a few American police officers who have killed American citizens in similar circumstances to this one who are free and have never been convicted.

Yes, it would be great if the law worked as we intended it to. Yet it does not, and to suggest that we continue to sit here while these police officers continue to murder people undermines the ability of the people who are being murdered to stop it.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#53

Post by jakkyboi » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

They're both necessary for change, it's just often that direct action forces policy

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#54

Post by marcosdumay » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #25

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. It worked for us.

You do not use violence in a democratic protest. To use it is effective acknowledgement that you either want to destroy the democracy or do not believe that it actually exists on the moment.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#55

Post by systemvoltage » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected.

There is this "damping" factor like a mechanical system, that takes the energy out of the people's hands and dampens it with lobbying, dishonesty, unaccountability and complete neglect for public interest. The response of the system is now steady state with little change. We need a public roster of each politician and their promises written in notarized documents, that can be used to strip them of relection and penalize them in some way so that future politicians cannot weasel their way out of promises.

I would also vote for public presentations with slides + data by each politician instead of these stupid debates and speeches. They should be documented and scrutinized for accuracy of data and their claims. We have startup decks, but yet politicians don't have to make presentations. Instead they trade blows on a debate stage with polished repertoire which has now become an entertainment show, at least at the presidential level.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#56

Post by throwaway0a5e » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

There's plenty of laws out there that are wildly unpopular and only exist because the people who make up the legislature wants them to even if the people represented don't. Legislatures can get away with doing this because no one law is enough of an affront to enough people to justify voting for "the other party".

Most laws making moderately dangerous things illegal or hard to get fall into that category.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#57

Post by Tomte » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

wbronitsky wrote: post #52

toast0 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. I don't think this is a good thing. The office involved should be charged or arrested based on the circumstances and evidence, not to appease angry protesters and to attempt to quell…

This reply elides the fact that there are quite a few American police officers who have killed American citizens in similar circumstances to this one who are free and have never been convicted. Yes, it would be great if the law worked as we intended it to. Yet it does not, and to suggest that we continue to sit here while these police officers continue to murder people undermines the ability of the people who are bei…

They usually don't even get charged.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#58

Post by MiroF » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

solomonb wrote: post #49

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

What are your thoughts on the Boston Tea Party?

Unacceptable destruction of property, the British were clearly in the right here

/s

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#59

Post by devalgo » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #22

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

>The MLK quote is trotted out pretty often, but "a riot is the language of the unheard".

Trotted out by ignorant woke dummies. In his 1967 Stanford speech MLK also says: "Let me say as I've always said and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and justice."

Using MLK to defend or advocate violence is astonishingly ahistoric.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#60

Post by evan_ » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #41

mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

Is that chronology right? Were there protests before he was arrested? Was there property damage in those protests? Even if so, 90% of the protests and property damage were after the arrest, so... they're pointless?

The protests started in earnest May 26 and Derek Chauvin was arrested and charged May 29. The Minneapolis PD third precinct building burned on the evening of the 28th.

The other three cops who helped to kill George Floyd have not been charged or arrested. Neither have the men who killed Breonna Taylor. That's hardly the limit of police violence that has gone unaccounted for. At this point it’s more of a protest against police brutality than just the one specific murder. So, no, not pointless.