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Please Pay for Your News

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Re: Please Pay for Your News

#51
I have a lot of thoughts, but in sum I think the article doesn't say much or engage in much soul-searching or really think about the problem in a serious/interesting way. Here are a few of my thoughts:

What about a patronage model? The demand for news is universal and the ability for people to pay the price of news they consume (not at all universal) lends itself better to a patronage model where a smaller number overpay rather than a larger number bearing true external costs. By this I mean is that the article proposes that people pay for 3 or 4 different news sources at a few hundred dollars a year. It's true that many on HN meet this threshold, and probably should pay for their news. But based on how few people have an emergency reserve, how many people live hand to mouth, how many people don't take vacations, I'm pretty sure many consumers of news simply don't have this kind of disposable income. Urbanites, who are the most likely to demand many forms of news, are also the most severely burdened in terms of other fixed costs (rent, food, insurance, transportation). The author sidesteps the disposable income question by listing other products they perceive to be more successful (like, say, Netflix) without really engaging what that comparison means.

By contrast to the individual subscriber, a single billionaire could endow many news organizations in perpetuity without blinking -- and in fact a lot of journalism is subsidized in this manner. The article quotes The Atlantic (being floated by the Jobs estate); the Washington Post (being floated by Bezos); and the LA Times (being floated by a wealthy doctor in Los Angeles). Of course all of these have ad and subscription revenue as well, but it speaks to the idea that there's an outsized role for institutional funding.

The same is of course true for government. It would be trivial for the government to endow local journalism all over the country, but there is a strong aversion to this because of the perception in America that state funding, state ownership, and state propaganda are all synonyms.

Local papers? If Jeff Bezos took 50% of his growth in net worth this year, he could permanently endow every single local newspaper in the entire country in perpetuity. Does it really matter what I do?

Hell, let's look at smaller patrons. The author is a senior software engineer at Google: one very simple proposal that we know the author can afford is buying, say, 100 subscriptions of a worthy paper and donating them. Is it likely this article is going to drive 100 new subscriptions by readers? I doubt it. So if the author really means to achieve the goal they are advocating, this is a route their article doesn't consider. One possible response is "it shouldn't be incumbent on me to be a public good provider" or "how dare you assume I have that kind of money" -- both of which would be responses to the article's thesis, with the added benefit that the responders wouldn't be senior software engineers at Google. In fact, the author surely knows dozens of other SSEs at Google who also feel the same way politically about this issue. Why not solicit them?

Lest this seem facetious, when I look at what @pinboard has done with the Great Slate electoral campaign in 2018 and with his fundraising this time around, it's clear to me that approach is more effective than simply the righteous blog post. Skin in the game. I would enthusiastically upvote a Google SSE handing out hundreds of subscriptions because supporting journalism is important and $10-20k is trivial for them.

But also the decline of journalism is actually nothing to do with individuals not valuing it and everything to do with structural factors individuals can't impact.

To the extent we're talking about local journalism, a large part of the issue was national consolidation of publishing companies. This is a government issue and it requires muscular antitrust action to undo. It's also compounded by the national consolidation of advertising, and the national consolidation of other businesses. As long as big ad firms do most of the ad placement in newspapers owned by big newspaper firms, and most of those ads are for big companies, there will always be pressure towards viewing small local papers as unsustainable.

Second, a lot of the more recent wave of journalism cuts has been text journalism unsuccessfully chasing YouTube and Facebook money. It's well documented [1, using the authors preferred source] that Facebook misled video watch figures and that this led to the loss of tens or hundreds of thousands of jobs. This is not an individual problem, it's a regulatory and structural problem. I could have told these places that chasing Facebook clickbait was going to bite them in the ass economically because it's a house of cards. They didn't listen. Why are Google and Facebook not looked at as the cause of this problem?

Also, the ad-first model has also hampered consumer direct-payment expectations. I can subscribe to a lot of paper magazines for $5/year. I don't want paper magazines, I never read them. So why does it cost 25-50x that to subscribe to the same content online? Answer: because that's the true price of what it ought to cost, but I've now been conditioned to free-ride. But I didn't ask publication to pivot to be ad-first, a variety of structural incentives did that.

Some other hanging user side questions: Why is it not easy to pay for the odd article read rather than a full price subscription? I read news from all around the country. I have no objection to a newspaper in Des Moines getting some of my money, but I won't be jumping through hoops to pay them $0.20. Why is search still so bad in online journalism? Why is there still an above-the-fold paper-first design paradigm? Why can't I customize sections without using adblock to block the sections I don't like? Why is so much of the page designed to get me to leave the page to share stuff on social media? Why are URLs so impermanent? Why is everything a low end liveblog format now? Why do major newspapers pay standing op-ed columnists to engage in empty punditry about things they know nothing instead of spending more soliciting the best possible external op-eds on a given subject? Who on earth thinks Bret Stephens has ever added value to any conversation ever? It might well be the case that making a product that's more convenient and less infuriating will solicit more individual compliance, but it's not individual feedback that drove these bad decisions to begin with.

I know this is a pretty far-reaching comment, but I think if we're going to have the conversation, let's have it.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/10/faceb...

Re: Please Pay for Your News

#52

To all of you here complaining about the ads on many news websites: Why not use an adblocker?

Seriously, reading the comments here is making me nauseous but I can't seem to stop. HN is the essence of privilege. Reporters are getting assaulted out there.

But "advertising" today is a twisted caricature of sponsorship models of years ago.

Advertising, like "location services" has become a two-way surveillance system.

I would love to be able to have a system of payment where we could pay a small amount of money for high-quality journalism? (and do it actually anonymously)

Re: Please Pay for Your News

#53
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, how do you get your news in a way that lets you bypass the tracking? Why not continue to get your news that way and just subscribe to ensure the news continues to exist?

I mostly get my news through RSS feeds (I have a small Python script that makes use of readability-lxml to convert partial RSS feeds -- the kind that most news websites provide -- into full feeds).

Sounds like you can subscribe and support journalism and continue to use your RSS system.

Re: Please Pay for Your News

#54
post #39
post #10

I'm paying for news. It's mandatory to do it in Germany and I'm really grateful for that. Especially in times like we live in today. It's a great basis for my daily and necessary dose of news. All those extras like good documentaries on media portals are bonus and only hindered by the private media restricting unlimited availability of those materials. Everything beyond that has pretty much grown into either a quite…

You are paying for bad news. The quality of the forced state TV in Germany is not great. No analysis, just giving politicians a platform for their uninformed propaganda. The main objective is to program the population to keep working without complaining. Bread and circuses. If you want facts or background, get the Financial Times.

Oh look at you ant those lines you gathered at the bottom of German society. Just admit it: you hate them because they report on people like you and you don't like to see your face in the mirror.

Re: Please Pay for Your News

#55
post #6
post #3

The thing about paid news is that they're offering a "premium" product, but that product has notable omissions. You know what I'd expect from news that you have to pay for? A bibliography. Something like (an idealized version of) Wikipedia, with a list of references included somewhere, each scoped to a particular claim—even if a reference just amounts to original research conducted by the news org. E.g. Interview wit…

Not to mention they still show me ads if I pay, which means I'm now paying them for the privilege of having ads I don't want shoved into my face and paying for the privilege of being tracked. No thanks.

You do understand that the news is one of the lowest profit industries, right? They showing you those ads just so they can stay afloat -- not so they can all buy yachts.

Re: Please Pay for Your News

#56
I don't know whether my position is morally sound, but it's at least pretty clear in my head:

- I want society to support professional journalism.

- There is an infinity of worthy things to read on the internet. I want to browse content from many sources.

- However, it is no longer the 1990s. People don't choose a single newspaper to be delivered to their houses and open it over the breakfast table.

- Accordingly, I don't want to have to choose a single newspaper to support, like people did in the - Personally, beyond checking the headlines, I mostly read the news nowadays with a feeling that I'm time-wasting: that I should be spending my time doing something more worthwhile.

- So it really seems that payment has to be per article. Presumably some sort of subscription-based micropayment service: pay $20 a month; can read content from (and thus support) many professional journalists. Something like Blendle. Although when I tried that a year or so ago it didn't offer the type of browsing I was looking for.

Re: Please Pay for Your News

#57
post #25

I tried, except, everywhere I looked, they promoted Op-ed pieces with equal billing and authority as traditional investigative reporting. Washington Post, NY times seemed liked the "best" based on track record for investigative reporting on politics and international coverage (with a US focus) but I cancelled both after a year. Open to suggestions... Edit: Also NYTimes cancelation process is AOL levels of hostile. Th…

> I tried, except, everywhere I looked, they promoted Op-ed pieces with equal billing and authority as traditional investigative reporting.

I share your dislike of this trend. In the physical paper days, the opinion pieces were kept within a specific section of the paper (usually end of section A, and column one on the front page), and it made a difference. Now you see people taking an opinion piece as speaking with the voice of the paper all the time.

It would make a real difference if the background of the page was different for opinion, or something, but I have no idea how to get there from here.

_The Economist_ has pretty good international coverage, but it's a weekly magazine, so a different focus, and they are not shy about their promotion of free trade and classical liberalism in the opinion sections, so you have to be ready for that.

Re: Please Pay for Your News

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry if my point wasn't clear, I'm looking for as close to non-biased as possible. As I layed out in my numbered list I'm completely aware that there are no unbiased sources. To claim I don't read the news is just attacking and not really helpful to my legitimate desire to find news sources that aren't just pundits of organized interests.

Okay, then I'm really not sure what you are trying to say. It sounds to me like, you have tried a bunch of news sources, and none of them are as unbiased as you would like, so you would prefer the news not exist at all than exist in this state. Or maybe you are saying, you don't want to pay for the news unless it matches your expectations -- but you DO want the rest of us to pay for it so it continues to exist?

I would say, like I said, that wikipedia has been my go to and what I support because it has a HUGE reference list for each article. My question is simple where are the news sources that list as many sides of an issue and list all their sources that they pull from?

I don't know where you are getting this notion that I want others to pay for something so then I can deem if it's worthy for me to pay for...

Re: Please Pay for Your News

#59
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My trouble is the dearth of non-biased media sources. Non-biased news never existed and will never exist as objective truth never existed. However that doesn't mean that all new is necessarily "partisan."

I would love to see a study done to answer if modern news papers has become more partisan compared to the past. While perfect objectivity is not likely, I can imagine such study showing that news organizations where more political independent in the past with fewer political donations, fewer ties to political parties, and with a more diverse reader base over the political spectrum. The later was for example studied f…

From a German perspective I don't think German media got more partisan. They rather became more clickbaity.

A notable difference is that it's simpler these days to read and compare different media, as well as looking at excerpts.

To the last point: Historically you got the complete paper and a good™ paper shares different oppinion pieces (even if main oppinion of a paper had one view, publishing opeds with opposing views is/was normal) however nowadays one doesn't look at the full package, but only clicks on single articles (probably spread in like minded FB/"social media" groups.

Re: Please Pay for Your News

#60
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unbiased news does not exist. To get a good appreciation for the real "ground truth", one must accept bias exists and seek several opinions on a given issue, from different outlets or sources.

With apologies for gently calling bullshit on this, you're basically saying the following list does not exist. Or you're saying it has "center bias," which is kind of like saying a court has "bias towards its decision". Or you're saying this domain is biased, even though it seems balanced (I've looked into it), an accusation that would of course require evidence: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/center/ There is an obj…

>There is an objective truth

When it comes to the issues that "news" covers for the most part, this is highly debatable (and debated) claim.

There are facts that you can state, but even then, there is the choice about which ones to mention and which ones to leave out. Or even which ones to state first.

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