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Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

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Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#51
post #29

MongoDB started life as a database designed for speed and ease of use over durability. That's not a good look for a database. People have told me that they have since changed, but the evidence is overwhelmingly and repeatedly against them. They seem to have been successful on marketing alone. Or people care more about speed and ease of use than durability, and my assumptions about what people want in a database are j…

Reading past marketing blurbs and using products for the things they are designed is part of any engineer's job. I was irritated by MongoDB's claims and defaults, but that didn't stop us from putting it in production. We used it from 2012 to 2016 (their most infamous years?), and for our use cases, scale, size+expertise, and feature set, it was a perfect match. In our case, durability was a smaller concern by design (lots of write-only data, lots of ephemeral data), but we still configured it carefully and never ran into any data loss whatsoever; snapshots worked, migrations worked, etc.

If the service had lasted longer, scaled bigger, and the business it supported had been more successful, we might have ended up with a now-classic MongoDB to pg migration. That was always an acceptable outcome, and it would have not invalidated going with Mongo at the start.

Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The joke I learned early on: "Migrating away from Mongo is trivial: wait long enough, and all your data will be gone anyway." I imagine things are better now.

MongoDB: the Snapchat of databases.

That’s mean to SnapChat.

Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#53
You can tell a lot about a developer by their preferred database.

* Mongo: I like things easy, even if easy is dangerous. I probably write Javascript exclusively

* MySQL: I don't like to rock the boat, and MySQL is available everywhere

* PostgreSQL: I'm not afraid of the command line

* H2: My company can't afford a database admin, so I embedded the database in our application (I have actually done this)

* SQLite: I'm either using SQLite as my app's file format, writing a smartphone app, or about to realize the difference between load-in-test and load-in-production

* RabbitMQ: I don't know what a database is

* Redis: I got tired of optimizing SQL queries

* Oracle: I'm being paid to sell you Oracle

Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#54
post #9

Discussed previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23191439

Surprisingly, it seems not to have made the front page: http://hnrankings.info/23191439/. There's clearly community appetite to discuss this, so we won't treat the current submission as a dupe.

Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#55
post #29

MongoDB started life as a database designed for speed and ease of use over durability. That's not a good look for a database. People have told me that they have since changed, but the evidence is overwhelmingly and repeatedly against them. They seem to have been successful on marketing alone. Or people care more about speed and ease of use than durability, and my assumptions about what people want in a database are j…

> Or people care more about speed and ease of use than durability

I think 90% of the Mongo installs I've been exposed to were set up by people that were tired of fighting with Hibernate configurations and schema migrations.

It's also popular among people whose definition of "legacy software" is "that app I stopped working on after three months because I have something shiny and new."

Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#56

[repost - asking for help] I am disappointed with the direction that MongoDB took this past few years. Going ACID shows in benchmarks [1] and it’s not advisable if you are using MongoDB for stats and queue. (No one uses MongoDB for financial transactions despite the changes.) And the recent change to a restrictive license is worrisome as well. I have been thinking of forking 3.4 and make it back to “true” open source…

> And the recent change to a restrictive license is worrisome as well. I have been thinking of forking 3.4 and make it back to “true” open source and awesome performance. Please do; someone needs to take that first step, and then many more could potentially contribute.

the license change was needed to keep MDB alive. Amazon's documentDB is just a fork of mdb before the new license.

Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#57

You can tell a lot about a developer by their preferred database. * Mongo: I like things easy, even if easy is dangerous. I probably write Javascript exclusively * MySQL: I don't like to rock the boat, and MySQL is available everywhere * PostgreSQL: I'm not afraid of the command line * H2: My company can't afford a database admin, so I embedded the database in our application (I have actually done this) * SQLite: I'm…

And you can tell a lot about a developer when they post comments like this.

Almost none of is remotely accurate e.g. RabbitMQ isn't even a database.

Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#58

You can tell a lot about a developer by their preferred database. * Mongo: I like things easy, even if easy is dangerous. I probably write Javascript exclusively * MySQL: I don't like to rock the boat, and MySQL is available everywhere * PostgreSQL: I'm not afraid of the command line * H2: My company can't afford a database admin, so I embedded the database in our application (I have actually done this) * SQLite: I'm…

And you can tell a lot about a developer when they post comments like this. Almost none of is remotely accurate e.g. RabbitMQ isn't even a database.

Re RabbitMQ, isn't that OPs point.

Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#59
post #13

I think it's remarkable this report has been out for a week now and no one at MongoDB has commented on it. At least, not that I have seen.

Maybe they're too busy spending their MDB money. https://www.google.com/search?q=NASDAQ:+MDB

I genuinely am confused by comments like this.

Are companies not supposed to invest money into their product, sales, people etc ?

And why does being listed on the NASDAQ imply being flush with money ?

Re: Jepsen Disputes MongoDB's Data Consistency Claims

#60

[repost - asking for help] I am disappointed with the direction that MongoDB took this past few years. Going ACID shows in benchmarks [1] and it’s not advisable if you are using MongoDB for stats and queue. (No one uses MongoDB for financial transactions despite the changes.) And the recent change to a restrictive license is worrisome as well. I have been thinking of forking 3.4 and make it back to “true” open source…

Postgres already handles JSON well. MySQL does a good job now too. And there are tons of other JSONb/document-stores like Couchbase, CouchDB, RavenDB, MarkLogic, ElasticSearch, ArangoDB, CosmosDB, AWS DocumentDB, and even RethinkDB that still exists.

It's a nice goal but there's likely not much of a commercial market for it, if that's your roadmap.

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