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TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

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Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#51

Post by FooBarWidget »

georgeburdell wrote: post #43
fermienrico wrote: post #30

To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber, and gladly accepts manufacturing investment - Tesla Shanghai factory, Intel's Chengdu factory, etc. because the CCP knows that they will gain tremen…

Right but what does that have to do with a Taiwanese company? That’s the part I have trouble with. According to the U.S.’s own policy, Taiwan and what we call China are the same country. So the U.S. is putting restrictions on a company for taking business from another company from the same country. U.S. needs to work on making its foreign policy self consistent. Recognizing Taiwan as a separate country would be a gre…

If the US recognizes Taiwan, doesn't that make even less sense? On the one hand you're saying that Taiwan is sovereign, on the other hand you're saying, we the US call the shots.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#52

Post by summerlight »

leemailll wrote: post #50
fermienrico wrote: post #30

To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber, and gladly accepts manufacturing investment - Tesla Shanghai factory, Intel's Chengdu factory, etc. because the CCP knows that they will gain tremen…

>China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber Both are wrong, Google quit from China, and Uber sold its China division to a rival company.

Wait, are you suggesting that Google/YouTube is still accessible from China?

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#53

Post by fermienrico »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #47
fermienrico wrote: post #30

To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber, and gladly accepts manufacturing investment - Tesla Shanghai factory, Intel's Chengdu factory, etc. because the CCP knows that they will gain tremen…

Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means? You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in the first place? Also, there is all this talk about "forced" tech transfers, but nobody forced US co…

> Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means?

I am confused by your question. How is this relevant to anti-competitive behavior of the CCP?

> You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in the first place?

Again, what does your patronizing clarification have to do with competitive marketplace where all parties can play fair? I am genuinely asking instead of just raising rhetorical questions. Literally the first line on Free Trade wikipedia page [1] says:

"Free trade is a trade policy that does not restrict imports or exports."

I thought I was talking about "Free Trade" as in freely be able to compete in China just as local companies. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#54

Post by dirtyid »

fermienrico wrote: post #30

To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber, and gladly accepts manufacturing investment - Tesla Shanghai factory, Intel's Chengdu factory, etc. because the CCP knows that they will gain tremen…

> China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber

Western social media platform are welcome to participate in China if they follow local laws - in this case onerous censorship requirements, which every domestic company comply to. That's what project Dragonfly was for, but internal Google politics killed it. Bing still operates fine in China while Google and Facebook still makes billions off Chinese adsales. For some reason people find it appalling that US companies have to operate by foreign laws when operating abroad. As far as I know, TikTok keeps US data on US servers. I'm not sure about Europe, but data siloing regulations is becoming the norm as countries realize the importance of domestic information control. So yes, the US/EU should do the same and if Chinese companies don't want to comply they should get booted from the market.

Uber's story is more complicated. At the end of the day, Uber and many Chinese rideshare startups got out competed by Didi Chuxing. One narrative is various local and national regulations on ride sharing made gave domestic entrants and unfair competitive advantage, but Uber had a strategic partnership with Baidu (to circumvent Google Map block) which had every interest in Uber succeeding.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#55

Post by wbraun »

What are the near term implications of this? I was under the impression that this was always considered a pretty extreme option. Between this and the plans for the TSMC fab in the USA I wonder what suddenly shifted in US - Taiwan relations.

Does this mean that Huawei loses the 5G competition because they are not going to be able to get the chips they need fabricated?

Is China going to try to split up Huawei into a bunch of "totally not Huawei" companies?

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#56

Post by [deleted] »

georgeburdell wrote: post #43
fermienrico wrote: post #30

To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber, and gladly accepts manufacturing investment - Tesla Shanghai factory, Intel's Chengdu factory, etc. because the CCP knows that they will gain tremen…

Right but what does that have to do with a Taiwanese company? That’s the part I have trouble with. According to the U.S.’s own policy, Taiwan and what we call China are the same country. So the U.S. is putting restrictions on a company for taking business from another company from the same country. U.S. needs to work on making its foreign policy self consistent. Recognizing Taiwan as a separate country would be a gre…

[deleted]

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#57

Post by marticode »

summerlight wrote: post #52
leemailll wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber Both are wrong, Google quit from China, and Uber sold its China division to a rival company.

Wait, are you suggesting that Google/YouTube is still accessible from China?

He is saying that Google could have kept operating in China if they had agreed to follow local (but Orwellian) regulations.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#58

Post by FooBarWidget »

fermienrico wrote: post #53
FooBarWidget wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means? You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in the first place? Also, there is all this talk about "forced" tech transfers, but nobody forced US co…

> Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means? I am confused by your question. How is this relevant to anti-competitive behavior of the CCP? > You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in th…

Those were genuine questions, not patronizing. I just don't agree with the characterization that things are "unfair". I don't see how you can recognize that buying means getting value in return while still talking about fairness at the same time. The fairness is already embedded in the very transaction!

You talk about anti-competitiveness, but isn't that just a matter of perspective and not an absolute moral high ground? When Microsoft was accused of anti-competitive behavior, it was because Microsoft used existing cash and influence to squat smaller parties like flies and gain dominance. In the same manner, we can argue that Facebook could squat other smaller social media networks in China as flies because Facebook was already big, and thus Facebook would be the one being anti-competitive.

I won't argue with you about US interests. But I can't agree with taking the moral high ground.

> "Free trade is a trade policy that does not restrict imports or exports."

You can argue that China is not engaging fully in the free trade principle. But in my opinion it still doesn't make sense to turn this into a moral high ground thing, because all countries have import and export controls to some extent, because in the end all countries look after their interests.

And not everybody agrees that the free trade principle is a good thing (note: this is not my personal opinion). See the rise of populism in Europe, and the number of people who yell that the Poles or refugees or whatever are "stealing our jobs". Now that I think about it, don't you have the same issue with US people complaining about Mexicans?

Turning this into a moral issue is, in my opinion, a childish view of how the work works. I am saying: let's recognize that this is plain geopolitics and interests, and not about morals.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#59

Post by bilbo0s »

harpratap wrote: post #28
throwaway2048 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China becoming more democratic has been a pipe dream getting sold by businesses making money off the fantasy for 3 decades and running. The opposite is currently happening.

People said the same thing about free markets in Soviet Union. Yet here we are with entrepreneurs and stock markets in Communist China.

throwaway is right though, free markets are much easier than political systems. It could be argued that china is already free market, and even still, that political system has not budged.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#60

Post by trixie_ »

dannyw wrote: post #34
trixie_ wrote: post #14

Can we get the TSMC fab built in America first before stirring things up?

TSMC's fab is in Taiwan, not PRC. Given the critical nature of semiconductors, if China invaded Taiwan it's hard to see the US not getting involved. TSMC is Taiwan's largest company.

I know it's in Taiwan, and if this escalates, the supply chain will get cut.

When it comes to 'invasion', there's no chance of defending Taiwan unfortunately. No one has the stomach for that. It's easily one step away from a nuclear war. You think coronavirus is bad...

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