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Jet propulsion by microwave air plasma in the atmosphere

arstechnica.com

51–54 of 54 posts

Re: Jet propulsion by microwave air plasma in the atmosphere

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just makes me think it might be feasible. If off the shelf components aren’t off by an order of magnitude, that’s a good sign in my book.

To be honest that surprised me. I think the Tesla motor is slightly misleading. If you've ever seen a 3hp industrial motor you'll see where I'm coming from, they are about the same size as the Tesla's motor and probably weigh twice as much. I appreciate that the tech in those motors is very old compared to the Tesla, but if they are that far out you'd think there would be profit somewhere in improving them.

The industrial motors don't have permanent magnets, so are cheaper to build and do not run any risk of permanent magnets become de-magnetized. Downside is they are very heavy.

Re: Jet propulsion by microwave air plasma in the atmosphere

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just makes me think it might be feasible. If off the shelf components aren’t off by an order of magnitude, that’s a good sign in my book.

To be honest that surprised me. I think the Tesla motor is slightly misleading. If you've ever seen a 3hp industrial motor you'll see where I'm coming from, they are about the same size as the Tesla's motor and probably weigh twice as much. I appreciate that the tech in those motors is very old compared to the Tesla, but if they are that far out you'd think there would be profit somewhere in improving them.

The difference here (as often is the case when comparing industrial vs. consumer equipment) is that the Tesla motor is rated for peak load under favourable conditions while the industrial motor is rated for continuous load under worst-case conditions. That 3hp industrial motor will run at 3hp shaft power at its maximum rated temperature for its rated operational life.

Many DIY electric car conversions use DC motors rated between 9hp and 20hp. They routinely get 100-200hp+ out of these motors for a few seconds at a time.

Re: Jet propulsion by microwave air plasma in the atmosphere

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest that surprised me. I think the Tesla motor is slightly misleading. If you've ever seen a 3hp industrial motor you'll see where I'm coming from, they are about the same size as the Tesla's motor and probably weigh twice as much. I appreciate that the tech in those motors is very old compared to the Tesla, but if they are that far out you'd think there would be profit somewhere in improving them.

The industrial motors don't have permanent magnets, so are cheaper to build and do not run any risk of permanent magnets become de-magnetized. Downside is they are very heavy.

Before the model 3 neither did Tesla. The main difference is that Tesla motors are water cooled so can dissipate heat more easily.

Re: Jet propulsion by microwave air plasma in the atmosphere

#54
post #35

"The essential idea is that air is ionized to a plasma, which is rapidly heated and allowed to expand to generate thrust." So this is just a conventional heat engine, with an electric heater. This heater may be able to get the air much hotter than other methods, but the thing about a heat engine is that you cannot get useful work out unless the working fluid can expand sufficiently. An afterburner creates more thust…

Replacing chemical combustion with electrical heating in a heat engine was an idea that popped into my head a number of years ago while thinking about the heat exchanger for Skylon's SABRE engine. I'll skip the drunken, derailed train of thought that made that particular leap, but off and on since then I've been really intrigued by it, and spent more time thinking about it than I'd care to admit! First and foremost,…

> There's absolutely no reason to have a turbine at all; you'd just want a plain old expansion nozzle. That means you could pump way more heat into your plasma, making your engine much more power dense.

I agree that replacing the turbine with an electric motor seems to be the only way to go with this, but the point I am trying to make here is that if you merely increase the temperature of the working fluid without changing the pressure ratio, you will get some increase in thrust, but at the cost of a worse Carnot-cycle efficiency: quite a bit of the additional energy input goes to waste in the form of a hotter exhaust, because it cannot be expanded enough to convert it to useful work.

So can we increase the pressure ratio? if it were feasible to do so with current technology, we would already be doing so, as combustion jet engines would also benefit from increasing it. When comparing plasma and combustion jet engines, we must assume that both will be operating at the highest feasible pressure ratio.

That does not automatically rule out this technology, as it may offer something in trade-off for its limited efficiency, but in the case of electric propulsion, the storage options are currently so limited that efficiency is highly valued.

The question to be answered is this: for a given electricity source, will this give me anything of value over using all the power in an electric motor driving a fan? For subsonic flight, I am very skeptical that it can even come close to having anything to offer.

The J58 is often described as a hybrid turbo-ramjet, but that is hype to some extent: it is a low-bypass turbojet with an afterburner and a pressure-recovery intake, but that describes every supersonic airplane. It is the pressure-recovery inlet that makes all these engines somewhat ramjet-like, and in the J58 there is just more of it. The distinction is a matter of degree; even subsonic jets take advantage of pressure recovery.

Pressure recovery does two things: it increases the overall pressure ratio, and it slows down the inflow to the compressor to below supersonic speed. The former is only a benefit for heat engines (Carnot efficiency, again.) Therefore, I think the only reason for having such an inlet in an electric-fan jet engine is if a supersonic fan is infeasible, and they may well be. If so, then it may be the case that makes sense to use some of the available electric power to heat the compressed flow downstream of the fan, but it is not obvious to me that this would be a better use of that power than using it all in a bigger fan.

I see from here [1] that supersonic compressors, and therefore presumably fans, are feasible, though have not been very successful (maybe because pressure recovery is a better option for heat engines.)

By using electric power in a heat engine rather than in a non-thermal process, you are already committed to throwing about two-thirds of it away, so there have to be some quite compelling benefits elsewhere to make it a net win overall.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flader_J55

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