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How Reliable Are University Rankings?

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Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#51

Post by qzw »

jedberg wrote: post #23
HenryKissinger wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that it's easily game-able also makes it more attractive to universities because they can do something proactive if they're dissatisfied with their ranking Are you saying that there is nothing lower ranked universities could do to improve their ranking in a better, more objective ranking of universities? Because it smacks of elitism.

It's very similar to sports teams. The tops teams don't vary all that much from year to year. They might change positions a bit, but it's rare for a new team to show up who hasn't shown up before. They essentially have to get lucky and get someone who is super talented into a long term contract, who then attracts additional talent. Or they have to invent a whole new way of doing things, like how the Oakland A's inven…

I would add that the effect is even more pronounced in college sports (in the US) compared to pro sports, especially those that have a draft system (so the NBA but not Formula 1, e.g.). The persistent institutional/reputational advantages enjoyed by some of the top college sports programs really are perfect illustrations of the network effects you mentioned. I mean, just look at the rankings enjoyed by Notre Dame in college football year in and year out, even when they frequently get killed by lowered ranked opponents in bowl games.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#52

Post by Retric »

jedberg wrote: post #34
cpsempek wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsure of the exact metric you're referring to, and I'm about to be just as informal, but sports teams swing much more wildly and often than universities. In the NBA, most recently GSW, going from 5 straight finals with 3 wins to last in western conference. See also CHI before and after MJ era. LAL most recently after Kobe's retirement and pre-Lebron. In the NFL, SF post-Young pre-Harbaugh. I agree, there are often d…

I would say sports just moves faster than academics. The average sports career is only a few years with a few exceptions, the average academic career is much longer.

The same could be said of students. Universities are made or broken by their recruitment, coaching/professors, administrators, and facilities. Sports may be slightly more volatile, but I doubt it’s nearly as much as people assume.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#54

Post by roel_v »

barry-cotter wrote: post #21
spideymans wrote: post #4

Why is there such a fixation on university rankings in the United States? Postsecondary rankings don't seem to matter as much in other Western countries.

Not true of the UK, France, Korea or Japan. I don’t know if they care about what are basically league tables but any educated citizen would find it no more difficult to reel off five to ten of their best universities than an American would to list Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT etc. I can see how it would look weird from a German, or possibly a Dutch or Nordic perspective but a deliberate effort to bring up…

From within Dutch universities, rankings are considered very important (more by the non-academic staff than by the academics). The general public doesn't really care all that much yet, but they do more and more each year. It's especially for international (student) recruiting that the rankings (national and international) are important, and that's seeping through into everything else for last 10 years or so now.

(not disagreeing with you, just adding some nuance about the direction of things)

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#55

Post by ashtonkem »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #14
qzw wrote: post #9

From the abstract: *>we both formally and experimentally show in multiple ways that this ranking scheme is not reliable and cannot be trusted as authoritative because it is too sensitive to weight changes and can easily be gamed. That's a feature, not a bug, as far as USNWR (the magazine doing the ranking) is concerned. A more reliable ranking would be more stable and therefore less interesting for the universities.…

> The fact that it's easily game-able also makes it more attractive to universities because they can do something proactive if they're dissatisfied with their ranking Are you saying that there is nothing lower ranked universities could do to improve their ranking in a better, more objective ranking of universities? Because it smacks of elitism.

Nothing easy or quick, no.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#56

Post by roel_v »

plorkyeran wrote: post #45
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you dropped 200k-300k on an education, you'll be invested in either the continued value or and improvement in your investment's reputation, which as the years go on is really its only value.

200k is about what I spent on my education and I can't say I've really had any reason to care about my school's reputation past my first job after graduation.

Sure, but that first job is likely to determine the rest of your career, if your career path is somewhat traditional. So the school reputation would still have been quite important overall (especially if you wanted to aim high and get hired from a top employer right out of university).

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#57

Post by ashtonkem »

talentedcoin wrote: post #24
spideymans wrote: post #4

Why is there such a fixation on university rankings in the United States? Postsecondary rankings don't seem to matter as much in other Western countries.

Canadian university board member here ... Rankings drive enrolment, especially international enrolment, which is a major source of revenue. Also prestige helps to attract the best researchers, who are being wooed by many top schools.

Well, it did. We're going to see how unsustainable our secondary education system is without the children of rich foreign families to sustain it.

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#58

Post by jldugger »

plorkyeran wrote: post #19
spideymans wrote: post #4

Why is there such a fixation on university rankings in the United States? Postsecondary rankings don't seem to matter as much in other Western countries.

Is there actually a big fixation on university rankings? I had no idea what my school's ranking was (apparently it's now #40) and I'm not sure I've ever had conversation where university rankings came up outside of specifically talking about where a high school student is thinking about applying. Even then it's not like it's common for people to pick which school to go to out of the ones that accepted them based sole…

> Is there actually a big fixation on university rankings?

I've sat in department wide meetings where deans of engineering compared their schools to 'the competition,' both in terms of US news rankings and their own preferred metrics. Usually to bemoan how unfair it is that Texas is a petrostate with 10x the population that can fund top tier engineering schools.

But by and large, the tiers are static and a uni in the #47 slot isn't making to the top 10 any time soon. Might not even make top 40. For undergraduate education I think you're right, nobody really cares. There's really three categories of schools: private schools / ivies, flagship state schools, and the rest. I'm guessing if you asked employers to rank schools, they would largely match selectivity -- how hard it is to get into the school. (or more depressingly, how good the athletics programs are doing lately)

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#59

Post by justinmeiners »

tyingq wrote: post #44
Aperocky wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where > 90% of the class failed. I can't imagine this happening in a college class where the instructor get to keep his class next year.

U.S. State college, a fairly well respected one, happening now. Chemical Engineering. They have no idea how to operate "online/remote". And that matters for classes like Fluid Dynamics, Organic Chem, Differential Analysis, etc. Is there some realistic path for me to escalate?

Is this your degree or your sons?

Re: How Reliable Are University Rankings?

#60

Post by dontbenebby »

I think they're useful-ish, but it's important not to get too focused on specifics.

For example I did a stint in policy and I'm reminded of how everyone insisted for a long time that "top" law schools are the "top 14" or T14 for short. This is historically the measure used since Georgetown was in DC, and the children of the elite must be "top tier" regardless of if their school ranked outside top ten on every official metric such as incoming LSATs, publications, etc :D

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