Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005) • Hacker News Board

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#51

Post by danohuiginn » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 2:23 PM UTC

bartonfink wrote: post #45

edw519 wrote: post #40

In fact, one thing I have noticed is that the people who I consider to be good software developers barely ever apply for jobs at all. Good point. The best developers I ever hired were (a) already working, (b) not looking, (c) referred, and (d) without a current resume. Therefore, the people who I consider to be good software developers probably don't have a current resume. Therefore, the top 1% of good software devel…

Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't that rest on the assumption that the top 1% of software developers are also strong enough networkers that they can get a job pretty much anywhere without using the formal channels which would require item (d)? I'm not at all convinced that's the case, even though I understand that there's some truth to the conclusion.

The point is that they don't need to be networkers, because they will be networkees. i.e. other people will notice how good they are, and actively try to get them into appropriate jobs.

I think this is largely true, though it takes a while for reputation to spread. There are some brilliant young developers who haven't yet been noticed by anybody in a position to hire them -- but they won't stay in that situation more than a couple of years.

The exception is somebody who is excellent, but stuck inside one company and not producing any publicly-available code. If she isn't actively promoting herself, it's possible nobody will ever notice her talent.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#52

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 2:23 PM UTC

Goronmon wrote: post #48

jasonlotito wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. Oh, if this was true, I'd feel great. See, I've never applied for a job, but I've been working in software for 10+ years now. I've never submitted a resume. It's always been recommendations and companies coming after me and trying to recruit me. Hell, my current job I got by being recommended to one of the partners by some other guy I never met who apparently worked with something I did!? Point is, I do…

Point is, I don't feel like I'm in the top 1%. Well, to be fair, you're stretching the logic being applied a bit. There is a big difference between saying "The top 1% of developers don't have resumes" and "Anyone who doesn't have a current resume is one of the top 1% of developers."

I guess that was sort of my point. I just failed to realize it so sucinctly. =)

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#53

Post by tom_b » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 2:24 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #2

This is one of my favorite Joel articles. The conclusion is relevant to us both as business owners and job seekers: any publicly available job will get spammed to death with offal, accordingly, the best jobs and the best candidates for jobs will both be placed privately. I literally have not had a resume since I read this, with the exception of a pro-forma one to give my ex-job so that they could pretend I was hired…

I think you do have a resume and it's a rather extensive one. Your comments here and back on JoelOnSoftware forums are extensive and you keep a very active presence visible with your blog.

Better yet, you document work/business and results extensively and then submit to the interwebs for consumption by the masses.

You have a resume to the nth degree - your portfolio of work and thoughts are huge compared to the average sw engineer.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#54

Post by aoschadlin » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 2:31 PM UTC

danohuiginn wrote: post #51

bartonfink wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't that rest on the assumption that the top 1% of software developers are also strong enough networkers that they can get a job pretty much anywhere without using the formal channels which would require item (d)? I'm not at all convinced that's the case, even though I understand that there's some truth to the conclusion.

The point is that they don't need to be networkers, because they will be networkees. i.e. other people will notice how good they are, and actively try to get them into appropriate jobs. I think this is largely true, though it takes a while for reputation to spread. There are some brilliant young developers who haven't yet been noticed by anybody in a position to hire them -- but they won't stay in that situation more…

I agree whole heartedly with this point. I currently work for a large bay area company and I noticed a new intern come on board who just has the 'X' factor, and could well turn into that top 1% or close to it.

Needless to say I'll most likely approach him as my first hire when I get to that stage with my own startup.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#55

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 2:31 PM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #12

anonymoushn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this argument, and which side is it on?

I'd suspect he means the argument that goes like: "There are hundreds of resumes submitted for every job opening in Industry X. Why, then, are we STEALING AMERICAN JOBS by allowing H-1B visa holders to enter the country and take this opening?"

[deleted]

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#56

Post by NathanKP » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 2:39 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #40

In fact, one thing I have noticed is that the people who I consider to be good software developers barely ever apply for jobs at all. Good point. The best developers I ever hired were (a) already working, (b) not looking, (c) referred, and (d) without a current resume. Therefore, the people who I consider to be good software developers probably don't have a current resume. Therefore, the top 1% of good software devel…

I completely agree with that statement. I have actually never applied for a job yet. The startup I'm working for right now hired me because they stumbled across my app and contacted me asking me to work for them. I have received five other job offers recently in the same way, without sending out a single resume.

Not that I am assuming myself to be in the top 1%, but to my way of thinking the top 1% isn't going to be searching for a job, they will be making their own job, creating their own startup and websites. It is up to you as the employer to discover these people and try to hire them. They may not even accept your offer if it isn't tempting enough.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#57

Post by grammaton » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 2:39 PM UTC

One assumption I never see questioned is the assumption that you actually need the top 1%. I would argue that in the vast majority of cases, you don't.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#58

Post by goldmab » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 2:58 PM UTC

Is there a top 1%? It's hard to really tell, but I think software development isn't a single rankable skill but a bunch of different ones, sometimes skills that are directly opposed to each other. The best person for a job depends on what kind of job it is.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#59

Post by agentultra » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 3:24 PM UTC

What I like about the concept of the mythical "top 1%" is that every company must hire only these cream-of-the-crop developers.

It's quite presumptuous to believe that you could convince someone with a PhD in CS and probably at least a bachelors in Math to work on your web application. This is someone who could literally be considered in the top 1%: think Norvig, Sussman, etc. The truly great programmers who taught the rest of us everything we know. Let's be realistic -- your company may be innovative and fresh in the marketplace, but the technical challenges you're likely to face are hardly interesting to these sorts of programmers at the stratosphere of technical achievement.

My advice would be to forget about hiring the top 1%. What you're really looking for is someone who is serious about the job and has their head on straight. Someone with practical sensibilities and whose ambitions align with the goals of your company. It doesn't take a genius CS PhD to do good work.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#60

Post by foljs » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 3:26 PM UTC

> In fact, one thing I have noticed is that the people who I consider to be good software developers barely ever apply for jobs at all.

And if they did they sure wouldn't apply for a company that makes a shitty web publishing app and a mediocre bug tracking system, uses a monstrosity of a custom-built language that spits PHP and VBScript, and is run by the man responsible (and wanted) for the creation of Visual Basic for Applications and a god-awful UI design book.

Joel has written some good essays, I give him that. There is nothing on his other endeavors though to make me think it worthy to listen to his hiring advice...