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Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

alexdanco.com

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Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#51
post #45
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

viruses have no agency so they don't attempt to reduce entropy across time. viruses are a reduction of entropy across time, just by being an organized structure (of rna and protein strands folded together) requiring energy to create and maintain. information is encoded in that structure--both in the sequence and in the shape--and that's transmitted through time.

What is the least complex entity that you ascribe agency to?

Not OP, but this is something I spend a lot of time with. I have a pet framework called Zodeaism which means "Living Ideas". In my theory, the real "life forms" are ideas which possess the capabilities of information storage, adaptation, self-repair, and transmission. My own consciousness is mediated by thousands of such ideas, some competing and some working in harmony.

One such idea -- Do Good Onto Others As Others Do Unto You -- is an example of an extremely powerful and resilient idea which lives and operates in the brains of billions of individuals. It is powerful enough to ward off weaker ideas and has lived a long time without much modification to its original essence.

With that out of the way... I felt it was necessary to reduce agency to ability to use internal energy in order to put oneself in a higher energy state in the external world. This can be observed externally. I am standing next to a rock. I can jump up, spending some of my energy, and fighting against the potential energy well of gravity. I've increased my external energy state at the expense of some of my internal energy. Thus, a living being needs a way to store and use energy. You can observe this externally and conclude that I am alive, while the rock is either dead or inactive.

I consider such an act of "living" motion which can take another path than that of least resistance to be a "kin". In other words, any motion which is the result of a physical calculation (Zodeaism is compatible with determinism) and leads to an increase in external energy state. A kin is any such motion, large or small.

So now the problem becomes, what is the smallest kin we've observed in nature? Single-celled bacteria can expend energy in order to move through their environment against forces like friction and gravity, but a virus "rides the waves" if you will, never expending energy for things like respiration or locomotion. Any energy which is spent internally is potential energy like chemical or gravitational, released through a physical process without need for computation. I am unaware of anything smaller than a single-celled organism which produces such kins, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. Even ethereal life forms such as ideas can produce these kins within the bodies of countless individuals across the planet, so physically local computational circuitry isn't a hard requirement.

So, according to this framework viruses aren't alive, however we can make the case that some machines are, except the experience is incomparable because of the advanced circuitry we contain which mediates our experience through things like emotion.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#52

So by extension, death is just decoherence? I've said before that the most plausible explanation to me for what happens after death is the end of "I," since we as "I's," necessarily cannot comprehend a state of "not-I." We can know it exists, we can experience its effects from others, and we can severely impair it with psychedelic poisons, but to decohere into a state of "!i" is, to borrow from GEB, the song that bre…

Buddhists would likely disagree with that, since in Buddhism (though this is a significant oversimplification) enlightenment comes with the unrooting of all attachments and the dissolution of "self".

If I've read the OP correctly, it would appear that information theorists would say that since the definition of individual is the effect of propagating coherent information forward in time, the "end" of the individual entity would be when it ceases to cohere information forward in time. Given everything "dies," and in this proposition in the blog post individual entities (living units or not) cease to propagate coherent information forward, the implication to me is the entity that is, "I," will also de-cohere.

By defining an individual unit of something as information, they've taken something we only had metaphors and analogies for and concretized it as a category of things that behave like information. I've applied it to something else we only have metaphors and analogies for, and am sounding out whether it provides any additional insight.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#53
post #33

> if it’s seeking to maximize that information passed forward, then you’re probably dealing with something we should consider to be an individual This seems overly broad because it would also apply to some or most machines.

If it applies to bacteria, it applies to machines, as bacteria are just chemical machines.

Note that "individual" != "alive".

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#54

This is not a new idea - it's been around for decades now[1] - and the suggestion that it's related to individuality is a distraction that carries a lot of political, psychological, and emotional baggage that is irrelevant to the topic. There is no individuality in information theory. There are only systems. It's been debated whether or not there's individuality in evolutionary theory. You don't lose anything - and y…

The way I see it, at its core, evolution is just a chaotic system made of randomness biased by environment, and at the same time in a feedback loop with it.

Survival of "fit individuals", or "fit ecosystems", or "fit companies", or "fit societies" - it's all the same thing IMO.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#55
It seems the author (or paper authors) are mixing up individuality with life/agency?

IOW a hard drive with information is working against entropy to keep information active through time. But that doesn't make it an individual - IOW I see how this can be used to define a singular unit, I don't see how this idea is used to delineate the 'emergence' part: What am I missing?

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#56

So by extension, death is just decoherence? I've said before that the most plausible explanation to me for what happens after death is the end of "I," since we as "I's," necessarily cannot comprehend a state of "not-I." We can know it exists, we can experience its effects from others, and we can severely impair it with psychedelic poisons, but to decohere into a state of "!i" is, to borrow from GEB, the song that bre…

What is GEB?

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#57

So by extension, death is just decoherence? I've said before that the most plausible explanation to me for what happens after death is the end of "I," since we as "I's," necessarily cannot comprehend a state of "not-I." We can know it exists, we can experience its effects from others, and we can severely impair it with psychedelic poisons, but to decohere into a state of "!i" is, to borrow from GEB, the song that bre…

What is GEB?

Gödel, Escher, Bach - the book by Hofstadter.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#58
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on the concept of what "not-I" is? I am very interested, and maybe it is my coffee just kicking in - but my brain can't comprehend solid examples of it.

The state of not being a self aware conscious entity.

Are you claiming that individuality and consciousness are the same?

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#59

I really had fun reading this and thinking deeply about the blurry Ill defined line between things that are alive (an individual) and things that are not. To take this experiment to a conclusion which the author has “left to the reader” as all good texts do, let’s think about a virus. A virus has information, in the form of dna or rna (I believe this is what a coronavirus uses), that it injects into a cell to then ca…

I don't know if the goal of the virus is to reduce entropy. Viruses mutate just like some clever computer viruses. Allowing them to trick immune systems and anti viruses and render antivirals useless. Bacterias are doing that too. I think we can equate too much entropy with danger since cancer cells also mean mutations.

The viruses themselves do not mutate, it is the genetics of the infected cell that cause mutation.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#60
post #55

It seems the author (or paper authors) are mixing up individuality with life/agency? IOW a hard drive with information is working against entropy to keep information active through time. But that doesn't make it an individual - IOW I see how this can be used to define a singular unit, I don't see how this idea is used to delineate the 'emergence' part: What am I missing?

Well, it's an individual hard drive. Maybe "individual" is independent from "alive"?

It seems like a message in a suitable environment can have as much agency as a virus? This is how computer viruses work.

A hard drive can work the same way; it's just a brick until someone plugs it in.

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