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Microsoft Edge is now the second most-used desktop browser

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Re: Microsoft Edge is now the second most-used desktop browser

#51

Post by sys_64738 »

lolc wrote: post #3

> But all of these show that Microsoft Edge is now a fully-featured alternative to Google Chrome Given that it uses Chrome's engine, Edge isn't an alternative to Chrome. It's just an alternative version of Chrome. Sure, from a user perspective, it's an alternative. From a dev perspective, it adds to the dominance of Chrome.

M$ Edge will dilute the Chrome brand to the extent that corps will simply use Edge instead. Eventually Edge become the defacto 'Chrome' browser to the extent that everybody refers to Chrome as Edge.

M$ is very clever.

Re: Microsoft Edge is now the second most-used desktop browser

#52

Post by err4nt »

lolc wrote: post #49
err4nt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a dev perspective it also loosens Google's grip on Chromium, the #1 rendering engine :D Having Microsoft collaborate and diversify that project is a major win for all of us. I am hoping/wishing that Mozilla will drop gecko development and repackage WebKit - it would be great for them to join forces and pool resources with the #2 engine!

I think that would be a precarious situation for Mozilla. Not to say the current situation is a good one. So I'm sure they're weighing this. But let's assume they switch to Webkit. In itself that is a huge investment. Then either they track whatever Google wants to do with Webkit, or they fork. But once they fork, they're pretty much on their own again. So there was no gain. To profit from Google's dev, they have to…

Mozilla is kept alive by Google funding, without Google Mozilla simply wouldn't even exist right now to be building anything. They are direct collaborators, not enemies.

Re: Microsoft Edge is now the second most-used desktop browser

#53

Post by jsjddbbwj »

sys_64738 wrote: post #51
lolc wrote: post #3

> But all of these show that Microsoft Edge is now a fully-featured alternative to Google Chrome Given that it uses Chrome's engine, Edge isn't an alternative to Chrome. It's just an alternative version of Chrome. Sure, from a user perspective, it's an alternative. From a dev perspective, it adds to the dominance of Chrome.

M$ Edge will dilute the Chrome brand to the extent that corps will simply use Edge instead. Eventually Edge become the defacto 'Chrome' browser to the extent that everybody refers to Chrome as Edge. M$ is very clever.

Go back to Slashdot with your "M$" bullshit

Re: Microsoft Edge is now the second most-used desktop browser

#55

Post by zrm »

wayneftw wrote: post #50
zrm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hardly even the right story on the desktop. It was obviously going to be the case that Edge would take market share from IE over time, because it acquires users in the same way that IE did (by being the default on Windows), and they're the same users. At one point IE was the number one desktop browser. So this is really just a continuation of the story about how Microsoft lost its browser dominance to Chrome, an…

Well, I was there and during the first browser wars and I saw users and developers choosing IE because it was faster and had more features than Netscape. Thanks to Microsoft we got XMLHttpRequest (AJAX) and Web 2.0 (DHTML, iframes). IE was just a better browser and that's how it gained market share - the same way Chrome did. The fact that IE was the default was secondary. If being the default was all that was needed,…

We can actually measure how much was "choice" and how much was "defaults" because at that time there were versions of IE for Mac and Unix. They were, shall we say, not as popular as the Windows version. Even when there were a lot of websites that only worked in IE. Heck, you can still get Edge for macos/iOS and Android, how popular are they compared to on Windows?

And Chrome got popular in much the same way. For a long time you couldn't go to google.com in a non-Chrome browser without seeing a banner pushing Chrome, and it was bundled as a "you must notice and uncheck this box or Chrome will be installed as your default browser" option in a wide variety of popular third party software installers, and it's the default on most Android devices.

"Good enough" and "gets installed by the user not doing something" consistently beats higher quality options for popularity. Look at Firefox -- it's not doing anything like that, it's a better browser by a lot of metrics, and it's losing market share.

Re: Microsoft Edge is now the second most-used desktop browser

#56

Post by wayneftw »

zrm wrote: post #55
wayneftw wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I was there and during the first browser wars and I saw users and developers choosing IE because it was faster and had more features than Netscape. Thanks to Microsoft we got XMLHttpRequest (AJAX) and Web 2.0 (DHTML, iframes). IE was just a better browser and that's how it gained market share - the same way Chrome did. The fact that IE was the default was secondary. If being the default was all that was needed,…

We can actually measure how much was "choice" and how much was "defaults" because at that time there were versions of IE for Mac and Unix. They were, shall we say, not as popular as the Windows version. Even when there were a lot of websites that only worked in IE. Heck, you can still get Edge for macos/iOS and Android, how popular are they compared to on Windows? And Chrome got popular in much the same way. For a lo…

> We can actually measure how much was "choice" and how much was "defaults" because at that time there were versions of IE for Mac and Unix.

Let's see your measurement then. I worked among people that used Mac and Unix back then and most of them were anti-Microsoft zealots or brainwashed by the anti-Microsoft zealots. Aside from that - they were in the vast minority, but more importantly: They weren't getting the same product as on Windows. Furthermore, IE was the default on OSX from 1998-2003. How'd that work out?

Google pushing Chrome from google.com is nowhere near the same thing as "being the default browser". Not even close. And it goes against your idea that "users not doing something" is what gets you a higher market share. It doesn't explain the rise of Firefox at all. As well, Chrome got popular in tech circles before they even started doing that.

Tech circles is where all this starts. Once we like something, we push our families, friends and businesses to use it.

> Look at Firefox -- it's not doing anything like that, it's a better browser by a lot of metrics, and it's losing market share.

It's a worse browser by just about every metric.

Re: Microsoft Edge is now the second most-used desktop browser

#57

Post by lolc »

err4nt wrote: post #52
lolc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that would be a precarious situation for Mozilla. Not to say the current situation is a good one. So I'm sure they're weighing this. But let's assume they switch to Webkit. In itself that is a huge investment. Then either they track whatever Google wants to do with Webkit, or they fork. But once they fork, they're pretty much on their own again. So there was no gain. To profit from Google's dev, they have to…

Mozilla is kept alive by Google funding, without Google Mozilla simply wouldn't even exist right now to be building anything. They are direct collaborators, not enemies.

True, I forgot about that part.

Re: Microsoft Edge is now the second most-used desktop browser

#58

Post by jjoonathan »

jsjddbbwj wrote: post #53
sys_64738 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

M$ Edge will dilute the Chrome brand to the extent that corps will simply use Edge instead. Eventually Edge become the defacto 'Chrome' browser to the extent that everybody refers to Chrome as Edge. M$ is very clever.

Go back to Slashdot with your "M$" bullshit

This kind of evil cleverness evokes the Slashdot-era Microsoft. It seems appropriate to resurrect the nicknames.

Bill-Bashing can stay buried now that he has moved on to charity, though.

Re: Microsoft Edge is now the second most-used desktop browser

#60

Post by zrm »

wayneftw wrote: post #56
zrm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can actually measure how much was "choice" and how much was "defaults" because at that time there were versions of IE for Mac and Unix. They were, shall we say, not as popular as the Windows version. Even when there were a lot of websites that only worked in IE. Heck, you can still get Edge for macos/iOS and Android, how popular are they compared to on Windows? And Chrome got popular in much the same way. For a lo…

> We can actually measure how much was "choice" and how much was "defaults" because at that time there were versions of IE for Mac and Unix. Let's see your measurement then. I worked among people that used Mac and Unix back then and most of them were anti-Microsoft zealots or brainwashed by the anti-Microsoft zealots. Aside from that - they were in the vast minority, but more importantly: They weren't getting the sam…

> I worked among people that used Mac and Unix back then and most of them were anti-Microsoft zealots or brainwashed by the anti-Microsoft zealots.

Explain Edge on non-Windows platforms today then. A mobile version exists, but so few people use it that it ends up inside "Other" in most charts, behind such well-respected alternatives as the house-brand browsers of various phone OEMs that bundle them by default. Windows Phone no longer has a meaningful user base, so this is from much the same population who use Windows on the desktop.

> Furthermore, IE was the default on OSX from 1998-2003. How'd that work out?

Netscape was disbanded in 2003, so apparently pretty effective.

> Google pushing Chrome from google.com is nowhere near the same thing as "being the default browser".

The equivalent of a billion dollar marketing campaign will raise usage of something independent of whether it's really any better than the competition. Otherwise Coca Cola has been wasting a lot of money on advertising.

> It doesn't explain the rise of Firefox at all.

You have to be the default and be "good enough." It doesn't have to be better but it can't be a lot worse. IE during the rise of Firefox had claimed victory and given up, so it was stagnant and no longer good enough.

> Tech circles is where all this starts.

Somehow Samsung has higher mobile browser market share than Microsoft and Mozilla put together.

> It's a worse browser by just about every metric.

Browsers are so complicated and there are so many possible metrics that we could have that debate for ten years and not cover half of it, but suffice it to say that some people disagree with you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+is+firefox+better

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