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Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

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Re: Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

#51

Post by claudeganon »

lonelappde wrote: post #28
save_ferris wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see a solution that puts a swift end to this. The power asymmetry between employers and workers is so vast that situations like these are inevitable. We can't continue to live in this fantasy where companies have so much power over workers and their futures. But changing this involves organizing labor, which is deeply stigmatized in the US.

Doctors are the strongest guild in USA. They have the legal power to enforce a chronic shortage of doctors. That's why why PAs were invented.

Well, their guild is obviously not as strong, militant, nor organized as the power of hospitals if this is happening. Gesturing in the direction of their other control doesn’t disprove anything.

It’s worth noting that the AMA also is structured in such a way that gives undue influence to specialist physicians over GPs and ER docs (their representatives essentially get more votes over group policy decisions).

Re: Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

#52

Post by micmil »

save_ferris wrote: post #14
frandroid wrote: post #8

This is a self-solving problem for the doctors speaking out. If the hospital would rather fire them than ensure their safety, then getting fired can save these doctors' lives.

It might be hard for them to get jobs after, though. I'm not in healthcare, and I know that doctors are always in high demand, but we can't ignore the cost to those protesting by risking their careers. So many whistleblowers face intense retaliation and career problems after coming forward, and I'm sure being perceived as a snitch wouldn't do one any favors down the road, even if you're a doctor.

"And why were you let go from your last position?" "I wore a mask in public areas during the COVID-19 outbreak." "holup..."

Anyone fired like that would have ten job offers within a day and their former employer would have an unending media shitstorm on their hands.

Re: Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

#54

Post by chongli »

zozbot234 wrote: post #31
Loughla wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We already shut down our entire civilization so that the healthcare status quo could be maintained and bills can keep getting sent to the correct address. What a garbage interpretation of what is going on. Jesus Christ, I'm jaded and cynical, but that's just too much. Saying that we don't want to overwhelm our medical capacity because of the billing, versus the actual reason of human deaths. Too much. That's just to…

The amount of medical capacity around is very much a function of "status quo" institutions and frameworks. Maybe not billing per se, but plenty of other stuff that's nonetheless quite relevant.

No, the medical capacity is limited by equipment and training. The medical status quo is based around normal, everyday life, where a wide variety of conditions and diseases need to be treated. It’s not an institutional problem that we don’t have the capacity to treat millions of people with pneumonia, as all of that capacity would be wasted during normal times.

Re: Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

#55

Post by PenelopeHopkins »

covid_stassi wrote: post #16

Anonymous new profile, my apologies. My partner wasn't comfortable with me saying this stuff in a public way. They work in the emergency department of a hospital in North America. It's not just that they'll be fired if they speak out... The hospitals are also threatening to withhold worker's compensation payouts if a staff member is caught using anything brought from home, even if it's real, name brand equipment. Got…

To echo OP's story (and anonymity). My partner is physician and surgical resident in the USA. My partner was told to either remove their N95 mask before doing a procedure on the the mouth of a febrile patient, or go home. My partner left, and now their job is at risk. My partner received several very direct (always careful to not make a paper trail) follow up calls from administrators and was given an ultimatum to either comply with the hospital's ludicrous PPE policy or be disciplined and/or fired. Several of our friends (some of which are pregnant!) are in an even worse situation working in the ICU and have been given the same ultimatum. As you'd expect, the rest of the hospital staff is appalled and are supportive, however, everyone is afraid to say anything.

For those of you who are unfamiliar to how medical training works in the US, residents have _no_ power. If they quit, they cannot become board certified, and effectively cannot practice in any capacity. 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 4-7 years of resident training.

Re: Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

#56

Post by travisgriggs »

sneak wrote: post #15
Reedx wrote: post #12

There's also this: "Many hospitals bar doctors and other staff members from wearing protective masks in public areas. Some have been disciplined for pushing back." https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/health/hospitals-coronavi... How do we put a swift end to this nonsense? Surely the public will be overwhelmingly on the side of doctors, nurses and other healthcare workers.

Doctors and nurses get to choose the hospitals they work for/with. Unfortunately, new entrants to the hospital market are prevented by large state-sponsored moats, and most of the large incumbents are shady in similar ways, so the ability of the staff to choose employer based on ethics/practices is basically meaningless. More options for medical care and medical employment is the answer; the vast majority of people i…

"Choice" and the "US Healthcare Industry" are two words that shouldn't be used in the same sentence. If you think you have choice in this system either as a caregiver or a carereceiver, then you are under the sad delusion that those are beads the emperor has hanging between his legs.

Re: Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

#57

Post by AlexandrB »

mancerayder wrote: post #6
polotics wrote: post #5

In practical terms: is there any way to short / defund / LBO / reorganize the NYU Langone Health system. Who runs this?

Can you kindly wait a few months first? Pragmatism before virtue.

First, there never seems to be a "right" time for virtue. There's always some reason why we should be pragmatic instead. Next it will be the economic downturn, then some other crisis, etc.

Second, given that the hospitals' priority seems to be protecting their own reputations over the health of their employees what makes you think that allowing them to act as they see fit during this crisis is the "pragmatic" approach that will lead to fewer deaths? It's plainly apparent that safety is not at the top of their list, maybe a leadership adjustment will save lives in the long run.

Re: Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

#58

Post by java-man »

lonelappde wrote: post #39
java-man wrote: post #2

we need to start firing administrators who issue these orders.

We who? Administrators are the ones who hire and fire.

we, the people. raise the issue with our elected officials. ask the media to cover the issue.

and, probably, the most efficient: vote for the people who are knowledgeable, listen to scientific advice.

of course, a better solution would be to implement a system where the goal of healthcare will be not profit, but the health of the general population.

Re: Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

#59

Post by MiroF »

checktheama wrote: post #49
lonelappde wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors are the strongest guild in USA. They have the legal power to enforce a chronic shortage of doctors. That's why why PAs were invented.

I think you're probably right about the guild part. The chronic shortage of doctors? Well, that's because they're perhaps the strongest guild. The AMA puts a cap on the supply of doctors (via # of residency slots they allow). The PAs were invented so that another class of workers could do the work of doctors without jeopardizing the doctors' pay or status.

It appears that you are stating the exact same as the above comment, no?

Re: Hospitals Tell Doctors They’ll Be Fired If They Speak Out About Lack of Gear

#60

Post by Frost1x »

Reedx wrote: post #12

There's also this: "Many hospitals bar doctors and other staff members from wearing protective masks in public areas. Some have been disciplined for pushing back." https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/health/hospitals-coronavi... How do we put a swift end to this nonsense? Surely the public will be overwhelmingly on the side of doctors, nurses and other healthcare workers.

I wouldn't hold my breath, no pun intended. Hospitals are in such shortage when you're dying you're not going to say "oh no I won't go to Hospital X because of their practices" during these sort of situations, it may literally be a proxy to a choice between life/death.

Hospitals are... businesses. They will prioritize their financial success over all else which is to be expected. This sort of press is bad for business, especially long term. They are not concerned with public health, they just happen to house a few people who care about public health.

Fortunately for medicial doctors, they're in such high demand that I don't think any sort of job security is an issue. Iff hospitals and state/federal governments are doing everything they can to obtain PPE (which I believe they are) then I can understand from a public health perspective why you dont want undue stress/panic across the masses (which may result in massive hoarding of PPE for themselves amongst other things), I think it's in the public's interest to know the situation so they may act even more carefully to try to prevent needing to go to hospitals to begin with.

Sometimes knowing about a problem doesn't help much about solving a problem and only causes mental stress--or leads to more problems (mass panic and injuries/fatalities due to this).

I somewhat suspect a lot of this slow rollout of self-isolation process also modeled out public reactions, increased 'escape' travel, hoarding, panicking, etc. and a lot of the rollout dates and gradual release of information of how bad the situation really would be was more planned out than is often suggested. Combined injuries/fatalities due to panic behaviors combined with infection vs slow rollout of isolation. The federal government has access to sophisticated modeling and they typically look at scenarios from a more holistic perspective not just epidemiological related deaths.

When you looked at all the initial data coming from China, we knew this was going to be bad but somehow pretended it wouldn't be and are slowly warming up to accepting the situation. Some of it may just be pure denial, "this cant happen to me" mentalities.

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