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Open Source Ventilator Project

opensourceventilator.ie

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Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#51

Post by DoreenMichele »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #43
DoreenMichele wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not thrilled because hospitals actively breed antibiotic resistant infections. They are a primary source. Keeping invasive equipment adequately sterile is hard to do, even in a hospital. It's just the nature of the beast. To be clear, I'm extremely not thrilled at the global acceptance that "we need a zillion ventilators" instead of "we need non invasive alternatives and we need to educate the world as to w…

Non-invasive alternatives to "breathing for someone whose lung function has fallen below life-sustaining levels" sounds like [deadly] bullshit. I'm not sure coughing in the shower is going to do it for someone about to die from hypoxemia?

Cystic fibrosis accounts for about a third of all adult lung transplants in the US and about half of all pediatric lung transplants. At the time that I was diagnosed with a relatively mild form of it, life expectancy in the US was 36.

So I have a quite serious lung condition and I used to own and use (and sterilize at home) various forms of mechanical intervention. I no longer use mechanical intervention, in part because I'm better off when I can find effective alternatives.

I'm describing things I know from first-hand experience to work well in the face of lung problems that are supposed to have long ago killed me.

I'm doing my best to be very careful and conservative in what I say. I feel it's actively irresponsible to not share such thoughts, in part because a lot of places are de facto rationing health care because there simply aren't enough supplies to go around.

If you can't get to a hospital or are denied entry because of overwhelming demand, having the option to puke up a lung in the shower is better than having no alternatives to a ventilator.

And perhaps doctors will see my remarks, realize this is a valid criticism and decide to develop some best practices to try to reduce the use of ventilators overall.

Worst case scenario if I speak up and no one agrees: I get downvoted to hell. Hardly a novel experience.

Worst case scenario if I say nothing: Lots of people die who might not have.

So it's an easy decision on my part. When weighing the personal pain of people downvoting me and calling me crazy versus death for others, it's a no brainer. I'll take my lumps, thanks.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#52

Post by nexuist »

dsl wrote: post #49
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just treat it as harmless hobbyism, which is what it is. When engineers are nervous, they build things. That is natural! Will these open source designs save many lives? I doubt it. Large scale manufacturers working with existing vent makers will do a much better job. But... if it gets thousands of people thinking about artificial ventilation, we might get a lot of interesting new ideas that we can use in the decades…

> Just treat it as harmless hobbyism Any other time, yes. In a time of widespread panic? Dangerous. People are going to try to build and use these at home in an act of desperation to "do something", and end up killing their loved ones.

Think back to Wuhan. Imagine the hospitals have closed their doors because they are already backed up. Your grandparent is dying in the room next door because no doctor is available to treat them.

Who the hell cares if you build a ventilator and try it then? They're going to die anyways. You are doing nothing except increasing their chance of survival by acting instead of waiting.

Should you use this while hospital beds are still available? Obviously not. But any care is better than no care and being treated by a Wikipedia doctor is better than being treated by no doctor when you're already on your deathbed.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#53

Post by chrisseaton »

maxlamb wrote: post #47
chrisseaton wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But does it really matter ? Yes - I think we should challenge misleading information wherever we see it in this situation. Fighting panic is part of the problem and bad numbers cause panic. I mean, if we don't really care that the numbers aren't accurate because it's more important to emphasise why the project is important, we might as well go all the way and say 99% of people need a ventilator and really sell the…

Yes, I’m sure lots of people in Italy, Paris and Madrid wishes they had spent more time/energy challenging the notion that ventilators are important as they are letting hundreds of people die every day because of the lack of ventilators. /s

I can't understand this point of view. It's more important than ever to put out good, accurate data and to help the public understand what is going on.

Also - what happens if something changes and now literally 20% of people do require ventilation? You won't be able to get that message across now because that's what they already think and the message won't be any change to readers!

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#54

Post by chrisseaton »

senordevnyc wrote: post #45
chrisseaton wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But does it really matter ? Yes - I think we should challenge misleading information wherever we see it in this situation. Fighting panic is part of the problem and bad numbers cause panic. I mean, if we don't really care that the numbers aren't accurate because it's more important to emphasise why the project is important, we might as well go all the way and say 99% of people need a ventilator and really sell the…

Actually, the biggest problem for a very long time has been people downplaying the risks and dangers of this pandemic, questioning the numbers, wondering whether it’s really that bad, and castigating any amount of preparation as “panic”, a word which has become meaningless in its overuse.

But we know we're creating more artificial problems for ourselves!

There was no actual food supply issue. But people have panicked due to unchecked bad information and now we do have a real food supply issue, at the very worst time to have one!

Maybe if someone had said to people 'hang on that's not quite right there's plenty of food being supplied' we'd have one less problem.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#55

Post by DoreenMichele »

twomoretime wrote: post #46
arcticbull wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many biologically active chemicals have been identified in nature. Aspirin (or at least salicylic acid compounds) is in wintergreen and willow bark. Opioids are derived from poppy sap, and eating too many poppyseeds will make you test positive for opium metabolites. Digoxin for heart failure and atrial fibrillation comes from foxgloves. Coffee, specifically, has tons of data pointing to it improving cardiovascular he…

I'm not denying any of that. What I'm saying is that when you randomly give a person a weak cocktail of random alkaloids and then ask them if they feel better, you're going to get a very unscientific mix of placebo and outright false information. When you repeat such an experiment on large sample sizes with no control over the other myriad of environmental influences on the subjects, even after attempting to control…

I've given quite a few disclaimers already.

To repeat a few:

I'm not a doctor.

I don't have studies to cite.

I'm speaking from first-hand experience.

I don't really expect to be taken seriously.

If you are taking care of someone who could die, the most legally defensible choice is to follow medically recommended procedures. But if the medical establishment is giving you an emoji shrug and you could die because of it, that's when it might make sense to take advice from internet strangers.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#56

Post by ldng »

chrisseaton wrote: post #40
ldng wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right. But does it really matter ? A lot more ventilator are going to be needed, not in % but in hard cold real absolute number. Isn't that more important ?

> But does it really matter ? Yes - I think we should challenge misleading information wherever we see it in this situation. Fighting panic is part of the problem and bad numbers cause panic. I mean, if we don't really care that the numbers aren't accurate because it's more important to emphasise why the project is important, we might as well go all the way and say 99% of people need a ventilator and really sell the…

I don't think this project wants to create panic. To me it rather is trying to help and be prepared. I'd rather have too many than too few.

Plus, we don't know when the site was set up. Two weeks ago ? Four weeks ago ? Our collective knowlegde is changing every day. Could just be they have been busy and did not find the time to update it ?

And finally, blueprint for a cheap OSS FEV will always be useful. COVID or not.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#57

Post by gpm »

chrisseaton wrote: post #54
senordevnyc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the biggest problem for a very long time has been people downplaying the risks and dangers of this pandemic, questioning the numbers, wondering whether it’s really that bad, and castigating any amount of preparation as “panic”, a word which has become meaningless in its overuse.

But we know we're creating more artificial problems for ourselves! There was no actual food supply issue. But people have panicked due to unchecked bad information and now we do have a real food supply issue, at the very worst time to have one! Maybe if someone had said to people 'hang on that's not quite right there's plenty of food being supplied' we'd have one less problem.

I don't get this idea that "panic buying" is necessarily bad. We are moving goods from communal locations to people's homes. We aren't destroying goods. Once/if the virus does arrive in a large volume at the location we would greatly rather that people stayed at home and ate food they had stockpiled than that they then went to the grocery store. Dealing with shipping extra products now (while a very small fraction of people are infected), or just having shelves in stores be slightly bare, seems like a worthwhile tradeoff.

There are some questionable cases, like people hording years worth of toilet paper (which can cause real temporary shortages and actually significantly inconvenience people), but everyone stockpiling a months worth of food seems like a good thing.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#58

Post by Mvandenbergh »

dsl wrote: post #49
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just treat it as harmless hobbyism, which is what it is. When engineers are nervous, they build things. That is natural! Will these open source designs save many lives? I doubt it. Large scale manufacturers working with existing vent makers will do a much better job. But... if it gets thousands of people thinking about artificial ventilation, we might get a lot of interesting new ideas that we can use in the decades…

> Just treat it as harmless hobbyism Any other time, yes. In a time of widespread panic? Dangerous. People are going to try to build and use these at home in an act of desperation to "do something", and end up killing their loved ones.

Ok, well if that is true then it is dangerous but I just do not believe that people will do that.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#59

Post by chrisseaton »

gpm wrote: post #57
chrisseaton wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we know we're creating more artificial problems for ourselves! There was no actual food supply issue. But people have panicked due to unchecked bad information and now we do have a real food supply issue, at the very worst time to have one! Maybe if someone had said to people 'hang on that's not quite right there's plenty of food being supplied' we'd have one less problem.

I don't get this idea that "panic buying" is necessarily bad. We are moving goods from communal locations to people's homes. We aren't destroying goods. Once/if the virus does arrive in a large volume at the location we would greatly rather that people stayed at home and ate food they had stockpiled than that they then went to the grocery store. Dealing with shipping extra products now (while a very small fraction of…

> I don't get this idea that "panic buying" is necessarily bad. We are moving goods from communal locations to people's homes.

Not to everyone's homes. For example: old people who can't rush to the shops and elbow their way through the queue may get nothing.

Re: Open Source Ventilator Project

#60

Post by scottlegrand2 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #16

I made some remarks about ventilator alternatives here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22624959 To pull out some pertinent details: Ventilators for covid19 seem to be mostly for inflammation and fluid in the lungs (aka pneumonia), not lung or chest paralysis. If you need a ventilator due to inflammation or fluid build up, you can do other things to address those issues. If you are doing home care for serious lu…

I get bronchitis once or twice a year. The method by which I clear it is to hang upside down until the s* just comes out of me by coughing as hard as I can. That sounds awfully similar.
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