Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond • Hacker News Board

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#51

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

silverreads wrote: post #5

Anyone unaffiliated with a large commercial organization is being systematically rooted out and destroyed in the free software community. I'm honestly ashamed to be a part of this community right now. ESR has done SO MUCH for us, but doesn't align with a position some wishy washy corporate PR departments have OK'd, so he's OUT. There is no "be nice" rule in life, and doubly so for corporate America. This is disgracef…

ESR has contributed remarkably little in terms of code, and a huge amount of politics of his own.

> There is no "be nice" rule in life

Golden Rule?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#52

Post by zozbot234 » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #38

zozbot234 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From reading the comment thread on ESR's blog, it seems that he went as far as referring to a prominent candidate to the upcoming OSI board elections as a toxic loony nutcase, and that this message was subsequently scrubbed from the email archive. Either way, this puts OSI in a bit of a bind, for obvious reasons.

The crucial question is whether anyone would be banned for calling ESR a toxic lunatic, and I think the answer clearly is no. There are no bad tactics, only bad targets, and the only thing that matters is, as Lenin said, who will overtake whom.

> The crucial question is whether anyone would be banned for calling ESR a toxic lunatic

Well, assume that ESR was running for a board seat at OSI, and that the person did so shortly before the board elections. Maybe they wouldn't be banned for it, but one could argue whether that would be the right call. It's an interesting analogy, because the "folk" perception of both E. S. Raymond and C. A. Ehmke is quite similar, in a way.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#53

Post by NyxWulf » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

turbinerneiter wrote: post #14

silverreads wrote: post #5

Anyone unaffiliated with a large commercial organization is being systematically rooted out and destroyed in the free software community. I'm honestly ashamed to be a part of this community right now. ESR has done SO MUCH for us, but doesn't align with a position some wishy washy corporate PR departments have OK'd, so he's OUT. There is no "be nice" rule in life, and doubly so for corporate America. This is disgracef…

Read ESRs blog. He has gone insane after 9/11. He thinks homosexuals are pedophile. I have the cathedral and the Bazaar at home, and I live that book, but he isn't part of the healthy open source community anymore.

Reading the quote from Kick https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22539826 doesn't say that. It seems a bit off base to me, but so what? People aren't all good or all bad. They aren't an authority on everything they have an opinion on. That is what makes appeal to authority so dangerous. I don't think it's possible for any strong opinion to please everyone. To me the question really does boil down to whether freedom of speech is truly supported within the open source community. True freedom of speech allows all opinions, even the disgusting ones so that hair splitting censorship can't drown out dissent.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#54

Post by kazinator » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #31

justinmk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parts of that email are so objectionable?

The "toxic loonytoon" part, referencing a prominent candidate to the OSI board? I mean, surely we can all have our own opinions about any candidate, but the optics aren't that good.

That sort of language is normal in the parliament houses of the developed world, upon which our constitutional democracies are based.

If there is some sort of evidence that the candidate in question is in fact a toxic loonytoon, by some sort of objective standard, then it's perfectly fine to use that language.

At some point, you have to call a spade a spade, and a toxic loonytoon a toxic loonytoon.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#55

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

justinmk wrote: post #22

aeturnum wrote: post #10

From the previous discussion, plorkyeran[1] found the email that they suspect got ESR banned: http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.... I'm not familiar with the culture or standards of the OSI but I don't think I'd wanna participate in a community where this kind of engagement is normal, so good for them I suppose? Edit: replaced plorkyeran's account link with their post. I also now notice othe…

What parts of that email are so objectionable?

Below email is the quoted statement:

ts originator is a toxic loonytoon who believes "show me the code" > meritocracy is at best outmoded and in general a sinister supremacist > plot by straight white cisgender males."

I think open source has a serious problem in the sense that there are a lot of projects headed by single, rather abusive and obsessed individuals. And moreover, where a stream of obscenities in an email is considered a normal way of communicating, accompanied by a "if you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen" attitude. "Show me the code meritocracy" can be more or less this.

My guess is that OSI has been attempting to change the situation. Part of the change would demanding people avoid streams of "strong language" as ESR uses above. Moroever, I suspect people already said "we're aiming for a better standard of communication".

As far the practical value goes, I'm not sure if there is an easy way to change the situation. Installing an ombudsman on projects is kind of hard given the projects are indeed going to belong to those who produce a lot of decent code. People create open source software that scratches their itch, not to conform to others' values.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#56

Post by monksy » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #34

justinmk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What parts of that email are so objectionable?

conflating a code of conduct with "political ratfucking" (whatever that means) and going into a rant about political correctness and Marxism is at best incoherent, not exactly original and at worst paranoid and adds nothing of value. It makes you sound like you're one bad day away from chasing swans through the park nakedly and it isn't really productive in any community. People like Eric need to come to terms with t…

> conflating a code of conduct with "political ratfucking"

There are strong criticisms of CoCs and questioning of the necessity of that. I don't think that's too much of a reach in how that was communicated. A bit exaggerated yes.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#57

Post by LiNeXT » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

turbinerneiter wrote: post #44

silverreads wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

only nutters were attracted to this work in the 80s and 90s. My point stands. We're kicking out the people that thought differently enough to make the world we now live in. Honestly I refuse to blame someone for believing propaganda when it was so strongly pressed upon them. Remember, gay content only recently became acceptable to advertisers and corporate america. Anyone with the old anti-gay viewpoints will be purg…

It's not about him no being an ally I'm the 70. It's about him conflating homosexuality with pedophilia _today_. I'm thankful for his work, but today people like him are driving away people from open source. And this is not a Linus Torvalds sometimes uses rude language kind of thing. It's about a person spewing hatred and toxic lies.

What relevance does his personal opinion on homosexuality, expressed on his personal blog, have to his participation in an OSI mailing list about open source licensing?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#58

Post by saagarjha » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #47

sneak wrote: post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

I think it’s pretty clear that OSI does not want to be a “BDSM but we build something along the way” group.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#59

Post by nrclark » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

I've read a bunch of ESR's writing, and I disagree with him on an awful lot of political and social issues. Chances are we wouldn't get along very well.

Tone-policing, cancel culture, and identity politics are a real problem though, and it seems like they're getting out of hand. This is happening everywhere though - it's not unique to the open source world at all.

I don't know what the right solution is.

ESR and RMS (who recently got removed from the FSF) helped create the open-source movement that we have today. And they both were instrumental popularizing the hacker counter-culture that dominated Linux during its rise to prominence.

Would I like them as people? Maybe. Probably not. I don't know. It seems wrong to marginalize them and cast them aside though, even if they're socially awkward or say the wrong thing sometimes.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#60

Post by monksy » Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

fancyfredbot wrote: post #50

nabla9 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

insane political rant part probably. >> * The "Persona Non Grata" clause is best understood as an attempt to paralyze resistance to such political ratfucking by subverting th freedom-centered principles of OSI. It is very unlikely to be the last such attempt. > Make no mistake; we are under attack. If we do not recognize the nature of the attack and reject it, we risk watching the best features of the open-source sub…

"ratfucking"? Classy. I don't agree with him but I feel a bit sorry for him. He's passionate about this and he believes what he's saying. Perhaps nothing could make him see things differently, but banning him definitely won't.

I find it rather concerning that they're that quick to ban him for voicing dissidence. Was there anyone threatened by his speech?