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Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

theintercept.com

51–60 of 114 posts

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#51
post #16

On the one hand, this sounds bad for Chevron. On the other hand, what is the probability that corruption happened in an Ecuadorian court vs a US court? It seems to me somewhat more likely that the Ecuadorian court was corrupt here, than that Chevron managed to influence a US judge to this degree. Of note, he could simply turn over his phone and this would end. There is no assertion here that he is protecting some wit…

I've read a few more articles on the subject now. One side or the other is lying through their teeth but I've no idea which side. It's depressing how possible it is for someone to argue almost any point of view especially if they are shameless and willing to lie and it's so hard to prove anything.

In Forbes there is a contributer "Michael I. Krauss" who subscribes openly and fully to the view that Chevron is innocent, that any pollution is due to the Ecuadorian petrol company and that Donziger is a crook [1] who fixed the trial through bribery. This blog post (one day later) by Clyde Osborne also takes Chrevon's side [2]. Weirdly both articles use the similar phrase

"If I were a legal journalist, I would track down Mr. Donziger's legal ethics professor at Harvard. I would ask that professor what he or she thinks of his or her former student. Harvard might want to create a seminar about the Lago Agrio case. Note to HLS's Associate Dean: I would be delighted to teach that seminar. It would be a great case study about how not to practice law."

and

"If I had been a felony journalist, I might track down Mr. Donziger’s felony ethics professor at Harvard. I would ask that professor what he or she thinks of his or her former pupil. Harvard might want to create a seminar about the Lago Agrio case. Note to HLS’s Associate Dean: I might be overjoyed to educate that seminar. It would be a tremendous case observe how now not to practice law."

That's a bit weird. Ironically today's article did speak to Charles Nesson, an attorney and Harvard Law School professor who takes Donziger's side and even "teaches Donziger's case in his “Fair Trial” course, using it as an example of a decidedly unfair trial." This other publication also seems to be more aligned with Donziger [3].

This is clearly a divisive issue with 9 billion dollars at stake for Chevron and millions at stake for Donziger (Chevron demanded a few years ago that he pay for all of their legal fees and he was fined for comtempt of court too) and so I'm not sure how much you could trust any reports unless you put a lot of time into studying this issue in depth. There's so much money swilling around and both sides have accused the other of running misleading publicity campaigns through to outright propaganda.

To me it still seems like a massively unequal fight though and demonstrates that a sufficiently funded corporation can crush most people legally if they wish to. Legal costs are simply too expensive for most individuals.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelkrauss/2019/07/17/suspen... [2] https://lawcer.com/2019/07/18/suspended-ex-attorney-steven-d... [3] https://www.law.com/dailybusinessreview/2019/10/18/chevron-m...

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#52
post #2

https://www.chevron.com/corporate-responsibility Is it any wonder that I'm extremely jaded with any corporation's public speech about how they care or how they're a responsible citizen? At the end of the day, corporate incentives are driven by shareholders and most shareholders are short-term driven, and only cry out after disasters happen, never before. Most corporations these days feel no different from tobacco com…

one solution is to use your rights as a shareholder to hold companies accountable to your long term interest. vote your proxies. or support year-round initiatives such as https://www.yourstake.org/petition/disclose-corporate-politi...

It's telling that nobody even mentions using your vote in the public elections.

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#53
the law as a system of rule to organize society is failing (another example is those kids prosecuted for child porn because they took pictures of themselves before being over the age of consent).

money rules society, and legality works for money; at the sime time, money as a system is encoded and enforced by the legal system.

we have built a civilization/socity which has trapped us. the matrix is not made out of computers but of corporate institutions. by this point most corporations of this magnitude are pretty much autonomous, neither their shareholders nor the justice systems can reign them in.

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#54
post #9

We somehow need to fix the judicial system so that companies with limitless money can't endlessly bully people.

How do you make money worthless enough that it loses potency as a bribe?

More transparency called for here... let's have the judge's financials and phone records investigated by a special counsel.

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#55
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

governments are not allowed to do anything that lowers corporate profits under these treaties. in this specific case the pollution was deadly and yet the treaty protects chevron's interest over those of the citizens and endangers lives

Well, the national government representing these citizens intentionally chose that attracting investment (which presumably helps their citizens in the long run) is more important to their country than protecting the health of their population, and as the sovereign, they can make that choice on behalf of their citizens. It may be a stupid or misguided or evil choice, but that's their choice to make. Also, for many thi…

these treaties are boilerplate take it or leave it. third world countries mostly don't have the option to vary these terms

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the national government representing these citizens intentionally chose that attracting investment (which presumably helps their citizens in the long run) is more important to their country than protecting the health of their population, and as the sovereign, they can make that choice on behalf of their citizens. It may be a stupid or misguided or evil choice, but that's their choice to make. Also, for many thi…

these treaties are boilerplate take it or leave it. third world countries mostly don't have the option to vary these terms

But they are free to refuse that treaty if they feel that it does not (in aggregate) benefit their nation.

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#57
I know plenty of people will dismiss it as a right wing publication, but the case against Chevron get weirder and weirder the deeper to you. Both sides are up to some some shady shit[1]

After a lengthy exploration of bribery, money laundering, and other corruption, Judge Kaplan concludes: “The decision in the Lago Agrio case was obtained by corrupt means. The defendants here may not be allowed to benefit from that in any way. The order entered today will prevent them from doing so.”

[1] https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/chevron-case-shakedow...

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charges were for violating US law. Chevron claimed that he paid off Equatorian judges, manufactured evidence etc. >> The decision hinged on the testimony of an Ecuadorian judge named Alberto Guerra, who claimed that Donziger had bribed him during the original trial and that the decision against Chevron had been ghostwritten. A lot of stuff happens in such places, but when you take on Chevron size companies, you bette…

Say the judge Alberto Guerra, was paid by Chevron or intermediates to say this, how would you prove that? Is the testimony of a judge all it takes?

[deleted]

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#59
post #16

On the one hand, this sounds bad for Chevron. On the other hand, what is the probability that corruption happened in an Ecuadorian court vs a US court? It seems to me somewhat more likely that the Ecuadorian court was corrupt here, than that Chevron managed to influence a US judge to this degree. Of note, he could simply turn over his phone and this would end. There is no assertion here that he is protecting some wit…

I've read a few more articles on the subject now. One side or the other is lying through their teeth but I've no idea which side. It's depressing how possible it is for someone to argue almost any point of view especially if they are shameless and willing to lie and it's so hard to prove anything. In Forbes there is a contributer "Michael I. Krauss" who subscribes openly and fully to the view that Chevron is innocent…

wow good find. that's sketchy.

Re: Environmental lawyer who won a judgment against Chevron lost everything

#60
post #11

> Even though the ruling was subsequently upheld by the Ecuadorian Supreme Court, Chevron immediately made clear that it would not be paying the judgment. Instead, Chevron moved its assets out of the country, making it impossible for the Ecuadorians to collect. WTF? A nation state couldn’t have seized the assets? It seems that multinational megacorps are truly more powerful than and above the law in small countries t…

You should read shadowrun. I think the system there is basically our future...
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