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The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

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Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#51

The important part of economic growth is GDP/capita, not total GDP. And if we are to keep growing GDP/capita without destroying the environment, a population decline is absolutely necessary. Increasing population is only economically beneficial in the most short term sense.

I'm assuming you mean "population decline due to death of old age and more empowerment not to have children".

Even then, this would only work until the population has shrunk to a certain point. Then what?

Maybe a more useful way forward would be to question if we need perpetual growth at all.

Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investment only cares about the total growth in a market, and investment is a big chunk of the economy. If I know I'll be selling 20% less widgets in 5 years as population falls, I wont upgrade my widget making machines. Suddenly the people making widget making machines are all unemployed. They stop buying widgets and my sales fall even further. That's ok when it happens in one sector but what about when it happens i…

>Suddenly the people making widget making machines are all unemployed More likely they are going to retire before they are unemployed. Working age population always declines earlier than population as a whole. I think it's pretty clear that there is a rate of population decline that is consistent with rising living standards as long as the decline is ultimately limited. We should indeed focus far more on productivity…

Retirement and unemployment are basically the same in this case. Generally in the US, people do neither, they become disabled. I don't mean they literally suddenly need wheelchairs. I mean that when a large factory in a town closes down, within a year or two, the number of people on disability linked benefits goes up enormously. Then they die "deaths of dispair", suicides, opioid over dose etc. I know this sounds pretty fucking dramatic, but go look it up. Plus you get the likes of Trump elected...

Im all for productivity, but we are very very bad at making sure productivity growth doesn't mean shrinking incomes for the majority. So be careful welcoming the closure of the widget machine factory (or it getting more efficient and laying people off).

There is a rate of population decline that's consistent with economic growth. But its very small.

Three things generally grow economies: pop growth, productivity improvement and technological advance. If your pop growth is negative, you need the others to be big positives. Except that productivity growth is hard to achieve, hard to measure, and (as above) needs a lot of political management to achieve without leading to serious social issues. So you're reliant on technology. And technology isn't really moving much at the moment.

Japan and China have both suffered these combined effects for a while. Falling, aging populations. China has been fine because they can increase both the technological and productivity levels of its economy. It can move from doing things manually to semi automation (now basically done) and it can move from doing low productivity work (putting things together) to making entirely new products. Japan can do either.

Thats why China has managed huge growth (maybe not as good as they like to claim but still) over the last 30 years. And Japan has basically languished.

We are turning into Japan, not China.

Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investment only cares about the total growth in a market, and investment is a big chunk of the economy. If I know I'll be selling 20% less widgets in 5 years as population falls, I wont upgrade my widget making machines. Suddenly the people making widget making machines are all unemployed. They stop buying widgets and my sales fall even further. That's ok when it happens in one sector but what about when it happens i…

> If I know I'll be selling 20% less widgets in 5 years as population falls, I wont upgrade my widget making machines. Suddenly the people making widget making machines are all unemployed. Isn't it time to switch to plugin making machines then ? Setup a market opportunities study to try and see how to recycle skills, know-hows and professional network?

Maybe at a local level. But not at a national one. If you lose your job, you improve you're lot by finding another one. If you're town has 100 workers but only 80 jobs, no amount of job fairs and networking will change the fact 20 people will be unemployed.

That's sort of the issue here: too many people, not enough jobs. And an economic/political system that assumes getting a job is possible for everyone.

Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#54
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investment only cares about the total growth in a market, and investment is a big chunk of the economy. If I know I'll be selling 20% less widgets in 5 years as population falls, I wont upgrade my widget making machines. Suddenly the people making widget making machines are all unemployed. They stop buying widgets and my sales fall even further. That's ok when it happens in one sector but what about when it happens i…

A single dollar is always worth a specific part of what can be bought. If there is less to buy, the single dollar is worth less. If there are more dollars, the single dollar is worth less. The amount of investment in LHCs might drop absolutely, but why should it relatively?

There isn’t a fixed amount of dollars. We have banks remember. Money grows and shrinks to meet the need of changing activity levels

Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#55
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealth spread really doesn't matter so long as everybody is getting wealthier. Which is exactly what is happening. By every metric imaginable the entire population of the planet is gaining in wealth. Some quicker then others. But gains are largely universal. Poverty is at it's lowest point in all of human history. And in a month it'll be even lower. Also when wealth goes up, overall consumption as measured by actual…

The bottom 50% of the US are poorer than they were in 1968 in both real and absolute terms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite...

I skimmed through the Wikipedia article you linked, but didn't see proof of that. I certainly could have missed it, though. Which part of the article do you feel supports your claim?

Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Suddenly the people making widget making machines are all unemployed More likely they are going to retire before they are unemployed. Working age population always declines earlier than population as a whole. I think it's pretty clear that there is a rate of population decline that is consistent with rising living standards as long as the decline is ultimately limited. We should indeed focus far more on productivity…

Retirement and unemployment are basically the same in this case. Generally in the US, people do neither, they become disabled. I don't mean they literally suddenly need wheelchairs. I mean that when a large factory in a town closes down, within a year or two, the number of people on disability linked benefits goes up enormously. Then they die "deaths of dispair", suicides, opioid over dose etc. I know this sounds pre…

>There is a rate of population decline that's consistent with economic growth. But its very small.

I didn't say economic growth. I said living standards. The important difference is that living standards can go up while GDP is falling.

>We are turning into Japan, not China.

Japan proves my point. The country isn't exactly impoverished, nor is it getting any poorer. They have very low unemployment and GDP per capita has grown about 10% between 2010 and 2018. That's compared to 12.5% for the US. Not a bad outcome in spite of a steep decline in population.

Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#57
I am not an economy expert by any stretch. Just going to share my take.

Growth cannot go forever due to these factors I observed:

1. More and more wealth seems to be captured and locked away somewhere while the rest of the populace is left to having to cope with globally dwindling redistributable capital.

2. Population isn't even declining everywhere but I've read several times here in HN that white people in first-world countries procreate less and less. Reasons can be a lot and my anecdotal evidence is that the cost of a basic life and some small extra affordances goes up every year. Families get more and more conservative on their spends and/or jobs. Many people here in Eastern Europe just decide to live on welfare and half-day crappy jobs somewhere but at least these jobs aren't stressful and don't require 2-3 hours in traffic every day. When you do the math such a way of life nets them 70-80% of what they would otherwise make so their choice is really quite logical. In these conditions the economy stagnates and companies get desperate for good staff while the government couldn't care less.

3. The population declines at places because people view raising kids as a huge financial and stress investment and not as the life-fulfilling purpose that raising kids is usually viewed as. This is mostly related to how much time is needed for a young person these days to actually start contributing to their raising (or new) family. Many people are just scared if they are going to be able to be financially stable for 25-30 years in the future. Others like myself are just burned out.

4. The economy gradually seems to be taken over by the very classic breed of venture investors that don't give a hoot about organically growing your customer base or actually taking care of your employees. Even in a presumably more conservative market like Europe, I see this more and more. Can we even discuss growth if, even against all odds, your company becomes hugely successful BUT has to return the investments tenfold? Again, this is a captured wealth going to somebody else's pocket (and they don't seem to be interested in redistributing it).

---

I could be gravely mistaken and be a victim of living in a filter bubble. Of course.

But it's what I am seeing periodically and it worries me. People just don't care that much for making kids or looking for jobs since it all just guarantees suffering and sacrifices and nothing much else.

Many elderly people tell me that they regularly chat with their kids (now 30-45) and are convinced that having a fulfilling life was easier even as back as 20-30 years ago. They might be right.

Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#58
post #2

The book Empty Planet is a very interesting read that looks around the world at various countries where population is declining such as Korea and Japan and European countries where this is about to happen as well. The book is mentioned in the paper. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37585564-empty-planet This paper on the economic consequences is also interesting. It popped up on various economics blogs when it cam…

What are some of these "good economics blogs" you mentioned? Would like to subscribe.

Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#59
I think it's saying that the "optimal allocation" "of people into workers and researchers" can result in ... uh, something they're calling "expanding cosmos" (as opposed to "Empty Planet") but I couldn't find any mention of space colonization.

Re: The End of Economic Growth? Unintended Consequences of a Declining Population [pdf]

#60
post #16

Why would you care about economic growth in absolute terms instead of productivity per person?

Investment only cares about the total growth in a market, and investment is a big chunk of the economy. If I know I'll be selling 20% less widgets in 5 years as population falls, I wont upgrade my widget making machines. Suddenly the people making widget making machines are all unemployed. They stop buying widgets and my sales fall even further. That's ok when it happens in one sector but what about when it happens i…

20% population decline in 5 years is a horrific situation, but machines have a finite lifespan so you still need to make widget making machines. A more realistic +/- 0.5% per year is all of a 5% difference over 5 years and hardly changes projections.
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