Live data from Hacker News

Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

vankessel.io

51–60 of 67 posts

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#51

Hold on, assumption 2 does not seem right. There should be lots of versions of you cheerfully experiencing timelines that involve an imminent lightning strike, gamma ray burst, etc. Those things haven't happened yet, so those worlds still have a conscious you in them. Retroactively declaring those selves unconscious seems to be a much stronger idea than quantum immortality. Also, there is a way to test quantum immort…

Part of the reason 2) can't be right is that there are lots of versions of you that are similar, but not quite the same. Suppose you're born with a severe life-limiting genetic disease caused by a single de novo mutation that will kill you by age 20. But in another timeline, there's a person who was born exactly the same as you were, but without the mutation, who will definitely live longer than you. Are you and them the same person, so you're not conscious? Is your consciousness proof that you're not the same person, after all? Should we consider everyone with a life-limiting disease p-zombies?

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#52
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. I really like the point you are making, but I am unsure about a lack of cause and effect. When I think of cause and effect, I think of it as taking the state of the universe from state t+0 to t+1 using the laws of physics. All of it being deterministic, except for quantum mechanics. This indeterminism in QM creating the branches allowing one to escape death. Couldn't believing in quantum immortality be com…

I find the whole QI following so weird... Do people really argue that QM can provide cartoon-like effects like a convenient truck under the bridge? Do people really argue that conscience is so special that the universe refuses to end one? The universe don't differentiate between a dead human and a living one. From a QM point of view, both body masses, correctly placed, can work as an "observer" to cause waveform coll…

"Do people really argue that conscience is so special that the universe refuses to end one?"

QI doesn't protect consciousness. Its argument applies to any quantum state, described by any arbitrarily complicated acceptance function of that state. The QI argument implies that you can pick up a rock, and that there exists some set of universes in which that rock will survive indefinitely, exactly as it is now, to any degree of accuracy you care to specify. It's just the more precise your specification gets, the lower the probability mass is.

That's why in my other message, I say QI only promises consciousness. Technically, there are universes in which by sheer quantum chance you are in fact healthy and happy indefinitely. It's just that "a healthy and happy body" is incomprehensibly more orders of magnitude more unlikely than being stuck in whatever constitutes the minimally conscious body. And in fact, the latter isn't a unique construct either. It's actually a function of the selectivity you apply to the acceptance function; you have the universes in which you are conscious enough to realize your plight, but they're dominated by the universes in which you are too minimally conscious to even realize that, which are in turn dominated by the universes in which you are just not conscious. But those are excluded from your consciousness' future states, which means your consciousness is left over with whatever else is left.

The distinctive thing that consciousness adds to the argument is merely that if you metaphorically drew out the future universes in which your consciousness survives, there is something meaningful (to us, anyhow!) "inside" that set. You can do the same thing to the rock as I described above, but there isn't really anything "inside" that set; it's just the rock and nothing else. Excepting of course that vanishing fraction of the universes in which quantum processes drive the rock to become conscious by any definition of your choice, of course.

(Another thing I'd point out is that for this discussion, I have no concern about what your definition of "consciousness" is. The argument works regardless of your definition, it just tweaks the exact non-zero numbers that come out.)

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#53
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If quantum immortality is true, and I, knowing that, step in front of a car, how is it going to prevent my bones from breaking? I remember a haunting fantasy short story about a boy in a small town who accidentally meets and becomes friends with the man who digs all of the graves. Eventually he notices that somehow, the gravedigger knows when a grave is needed before a person dies, but won't say how or who. Often it…

"If quantum immortality is true, and I, knowing that, step in front of a car, how is it going to prevent my bones from breaking?" Quantum immortality doesn't promise health. It promises consciousness. It is in fact a horrible idea and you better damned well hope it is false, because it looks a lot less like "I'm going to live forever in at least some fraction of the multiverse and be healthy and happy!" and rather a…

It also doesn't necessarily entail remembering who you are. So I think it's not that horrible: you lose more and more of your memories and your capabilities of forming thoughts and intentions, until it's just generic consciousness aware of itself doing nothing and of (what's left from) input stimuli.

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#54

I got the following message: 'j/.uG}mzgP8zs_4=q|_nN'{C@EpQ}=lzSt9+'l~SmqVyusft8BGgt)K"XKcly24N1cmZg_iz\z $/pt.`P".W-CwP>w4#2%axJHATmA}xg? d%(8 7`wQCe3jIl^kPHQI#dp. I think it would be just as likely for the message to say "Do the following to extend your life" as it is for the supposedly random characters above being interpreted a certain way. In this case, the characters that jump out at me immediately are JHAT, 4 c…

[deleted]

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#55
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If quantum immortality is true, and I, knowing that, step in front of a car, how is it going to prevent my bones from breaking?" Quantum immortality doesn't promise health. It promises consciousness. It is in fact a horrible idea and you better damned well hope it is false, because it looks a lot less like "I'm going to live forever in at least some fraction of the multiverse and be healthy and happy!" and rather a…

It also doesn't necessarily entail remembering who you are. So I think it's not that horrible: you lose more and more of your memories and your capabilities of forming thoughts and intentions, until it's just generic consciousness aware of itself doing nothing and of (what's left from) input stimuli.

So, in the limit it's not observably different from death? Then it's death.

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also doesn't necessarily entail remembering who you are. So I think it's not that horrible: you lose more and more of your memories and your capabilities of forming thoughts and intentions, until it's just generic consciousness aware of itself doing nothing and of (what's left from) input stimuli.

So, in the limit it's not observably different from death? Then it's death.

It's all the things. QI is basically just an consciousness-centric view of the already-understood truth that in the quantum multiverse, everything that can possibly happen does. It just means that there is some way in which you may actually experience some aspect of that, because your future conscious experience excludes all the universes in which you are not conscious. You can draw a subset of future universes in which you are minimally conscious, in which you're just a wee bit more conscious than that, in which you're conscious enough to be aware of your plight indefinitely, in which as I say in another message you're healthy indefinitely. You're not causing anything to be or not to be, you're just carving various subsets of radically differing, but non-zero, size out of the near-infinity of the full quantum multiverse, which exist whether or not you choose to regard them.

So, you know, in a fraction of the universes in which you remain conscious that would require something like 1 over a number in arrow notation to describe, you'll be conscious enough to be perturbed. This is utterly, utterly dominated by the universes in which you're just sort of there. However, if you then choose to exclude those latter universes on the grounds that you consider that to be "dead", then that brings that tiny fraction back to the fore by virtue of eliminating everything else.

It's a lot of definition chopping and manipulating rather enormous exponentials in the probabilities. However, there is still an underlying truth there, if the multiverse is true. It's just more subtle than the casual human view of "survival" or a brief gloss of the argument might entail. You have to think in quantum terms about whether or not this spin goes that way or the other, not in human terms like whether or not the gun fires. The latter is made up of an incomprehensibly large number of the former sort of things, and as you start talking about the fringe cases the quantum events require staggeringly enormous exponential probabilities to describe anything even remotely human-visible.

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#57
People have pointed out many flaws in this argument, but I haven’t seen what I believe is the simplest flaw: specifically, if QI as defined in the article is true, you can’t conclude that the universe will take every possible opportunity to extend your life, only that you will always fail to experience life-ending events. A failure to receive a message about extending your life is not a life ending event, as your life could be saved later through other means. And it doesn’t matter how unlikely those other means are, because your consciousness will simply follow the path in which it still exists, regardless of the likelihood of that path.

And if you think about that for a minute, the prospect of QI ought to horrify you. What sort of being will you be in 1000 years, if the only thing preventing you from dying is the ability to follow infinitesimal paths through the evolving wave function?

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#58
post #56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, in the limit it's not observably different from death? Then it's death.

It's all the things. QI is basically just an consciousness-centric view of the already-understood truth that in the quantum multiverse, everything that can possibly happen does. It just means that there is some way in which you may actually experience some aspect of that, because your future conscious experience excludes all the universes in which you are not conscious. You can draw a subset of future universes in wh…

Branching of multiverse on every measurement event is an approximation. The branches aren't fully isolated. I suspect that extremely low amplitude branches undergo merger events, which makes it impossible to have coherent timeline in them. But I'm completely out of my depth here.

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#59
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all the things. QI is basically just an consciousness-centric view of the already-understood truth that in the quantum multiverse, everything that can possibly happen does. It just means that there is some way in which you may actually experience some aspect of that, because your future conscious experience excludes all the universes in which you are not conscious. You can draw a subset of future universes in wh…

Branching of multiverse on every measurement event is an approximation. The branches aren't fully isolated. I suspect that extremely low amplitude branches undergo merger events, which makes it impossible to have coherent timeline in them. But I'm completely out of my depth here.

I don't think that's an official part of the theory. It may be true, but I don't think anyone's proposed it.

Defining "low amplitude" branch meaningfully would be a real challenge. As I like to say sometimes, the probability of anything happening is indistinguishable from zero. 15-16 billion years after the Big Bang, we've already got a pretty low amplitude, one that would require something like arrow notation (as I reference in another comment) to describe where we are now relative to where the universe started. Heck, it takes arrow notation just to describe how much probability mass we're shedding every second.

(It actually occurs to me after a discussion of this that I can tweak an argument I've been growing over the years to prove that you can't have all three of "a universe that never ends", "the quantum multiverse", and "a coherent conscious experience".)

Re: Disprove quantum immortality without risking your life (2019)

#60
post #39
post #13

I like the idea that we're all immortal from our own perspective. I don't think this article contradicts it. >Consciousness experiences the reality in which it lives the longest: Under this assumption we can change the circumstances from a punishment to a reward. Instead of a gun, imagine a doctor has information about your health. If he tells you about it and you act on the information, you will certainly live a lon…

> I like the idea that we're all immortal from our own perspective I think of this everytime I'm in a situation where I just almost died . I don't really think it's the case but everytime it happens I update my my credences and add 0.00000000000000001% to the chances that it could be true :-)

I think it was the movie "The Darwin Awards" that first introduced me to the concept of "micro-morts". The idea that there are activities that carry a small increase in the probability of death... Since then, I've seen other evidence of that idea.

I read a story about a nomadic tribe that will not sleep under dead trees as it is seen as bad luck. On any given night the chance that a dead tree will fall on you is very small, but if you sleep under dead trees every night, the chance that one will fall on you starts to add up, and it's likely to be your eventual cause of death.

Post reply on HN