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We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

theguardian.com

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Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#51

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #50
cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The renewed interest in C++ and other compiled languages is an indication of the need to get more efficient. I kind of disagree with this based on intuition alone. Most developers, professional developers, are using web tech (JS stack in particular - Node and hyped front-end frameworks). Yet we"re seeing "interest" in compiled languages such as Rust, despite almost nobody using it professionally and almost nobody do…

Rust is used for far more than proofs of concept, and is deployed at some of the largest tech companies in some of their key products.

Not disagreeing with that.

Although, in re-reading the above, I have made a grave mistake above, contrasting most used with most loved. SO's "most loved" is measured by "of those professional using this language, how many responded that they love using it", so in the case of Rust it's 83.5% of the 3% using it professionally.

In retrospect I think my point would be better made by pointing at the difference between the technologies being used professionally and the technologies "most wanted", where Go and Rust are in the top 20% of wanted but the bottom 40% for Go and bottom 20% for Rust.

I'll leave the original intact for posterity but what's cited is done so erroneously.

Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#52

Post by steveklabnik »

cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #51
steveklabnik wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust is used for far more than proofs of concept, and is deployed at some of the largest tech companies in some of their key products.

Not disagreeing with that. Although, in re-reading the above, I have made a grave mistake above, contrasting most used with most loved. SO's "most loved" is measured by "of those professional using this language, how many responded that they love using it", so in the case of Rust it's 83.5% of the 3% using it professionally. In retrospect I think my point would be better made by pointing at the difference between the…

Yeah, it’s tough; the “most loved” thing is interesting. It’s name kinda indicates a scope that’s different from what it’s measuring, but I’m also not sure what else I’d call it.

Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#53

Post by qwerty456127 »

leetcrew wrote: post #46
qwerty456127 wrote: post #27

Why do we need more computer power? I haven't upgraded my laptop since 2009 (well, I've replaced its HDD with an SSD 2 years ago and it made a huge difference) and I'm okay. Some people insist on photorealistic 3D graphics in the games they play, I agree that's cool but wouldn't say that's anything close to important.

do you ever compile code? at work I have a machine with an i7-7700 (4C/8T), 32GB of RAM, and an SSD. it still takes about 45 minutes to do a full build of the project I work on, which can easily be triggered by modifying any of the important header files. if I had to do my job on your laptop from 2009, I'd never get anything done.

No, indeed I don't. It has been a long time since I've started actively avoiding C and C++ because it takes too long time to compile. Nevertheless I used to compile reasonable amounts of C# until recently and it wasn't a problem. Nowadays I mostly use write-and-run scripting languages like Python and build-free vanilla JavaScript.

Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#54

Post by narag »

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The major problem areas are those where it's economically "best" to do the computationally inefficient thing. The obvious example is the quick-to-build MVP, but many of the bigger problems come from platform conflicts. Because we have at least five different actively uncooperating operating system platforms, it's hard to build portable native apps - so people build electron apps instead. We also use the web browser a…

I just realized that this situation hasn't improved much in twenty years. But the problems are really commercial (or maybe "political") not technical.

Then there's the ongoing War On Native Apps.

I'm no prophet, but I did predict then that the browser would have eaten all the business applications space by now. It was just obvious. Colleagues objected that the web could not match rich native programs.

Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#55

Post by [deleted] »

michaelbrave wrote: post #48
pjc50 wrote: post #23

The major problem areas are those where it's economically "best" to do the computationally inefficient thing. The obvious example is the quick-to-build MVP, but many of the bigger problems come from platform conflicts. Because we have at least five different actively uncooperating operating system platforms, it's hard to build portable native apps - so people build electron apps instead. We also use the web browser a…

Flutter looks promising for solving a lot of the platform conflict problems.

[deleted]

Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#56

Post by falcolas »

tluyben2 wrote: post #21
falcolas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the software only needs to respond at a certain speed, scale will quickly make you either pay through the nose for better hardware or optimize the software so that it can respond in a small fraction of the original speed. The trick, as always, is finding balance between paying for hardware and paying developers.

But that is the case now too and in my experience it swung to paying through the nose for hardware in general; as more or less a sidetrack I take on projects where I optimise (mostly online) systems. Example; a few weeks ago a startup asked me to check out their setup as they were spending almost 30k$/mo on AWS. I spent a few days optimising and now they are down to less than 10k$. With some more work it will be a fe…

> paying through the nose for hardware in general

You also have to consider that there are limits to how parallel an application can be - Amdahl's Law - at some point even throwing hardware at a scaling issues has its limits.

Of course, there's also a truism that the team who implemented the first pass won't have to support (financially or as a developer) the software when it no longer scales.

Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#57

Post by errantspark »

narag wrote: post #54
pjc50 wrote: post #23

The major problem areas are those where it's economically "best" to do the computationally inefficient thing. The obvious example is the quick-to-build MVP, but many of the bigger problems come from platform conflicts. Because we have at least five different actively uncooperating operating system platforms, it's hard to build portable native apps - so people build electron apps instead. We also use the web browser a…

I just realized that this situation hasn't improved much in twenty years. But the problems are really commercial (or maybe "political") not technical. Then there's the ongoing War On Native Apps. I'm no prophet, but I did predict then that the browser would have eaten all the business applications space by now. It was just obvious. Colleagues objected that the web could not match rich native programs.

Well it can't, but it doesn't matter in the way your colleagues thought it would.

Excel is a much better product than Google Sheets, but having the better product doesn't mean having the winning product.

Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#58

Post by dnautics »

falcolas wrote: post #56
tluyben2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that is the case now too and in my experience it swung to paying through the nose for hardware in general; as more or less a sidetrack I take on projects where I optimise (mostly online) systems. Example; a few weeks ago a startup asked me to check out their setup as they were spending almost 30k$/mo on AWS. I spent a few days optimising and now they are down to less than 10k$. With some more work it will be a fe…

> paying through the nose for hardware in general You also have to consider that there are limits to how parallel an application can be - Amdahl's Law - at some point even throwing hardware at a scaling issues has its limits. Of course, there's also a truism that the team who implemented the first pass won't have to support (financially or as a developer) the software when it no longer scales.

No, amdahl's law is (roughly speaking) a limit to how parallel an algorithm can be. Applications (in the sense of web apps) generally have the potential to scale via Gustafson's law, but we are (IMO) largely held back by framework and old ways of programming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustafson's_law

Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#59

Post by nickpinkston »

We're mostly fighting Murphy's Law, not Moore's law. As said below, most problems are so far from being compute/$ or otherwise technically limited and far more about organizational / political issues putting vast inefficiencies into these systems and priorities that fund their creation.

Re: We’re approaching the limits of computer power – we need new programmers

#60

Post by billti »

leetcrew wrote: post #46
qwerty456127 wrote: post #27

Why do we need more computer power? I haven't upgraded my laptop since 2009 (well, I've replaced its HDD with an SSD 2 years ago and it made a huge difference) and I'm okay. Some people insist on photorealistic 3D graphics in the games they play, I agree that's cool but wouldn't say that's anything close to important.

do you ever compile code? at work I have a machine with an i7-7700 (4C/8T), 32GB of RAM, and an SSD. it still takes about 45 minutes to do a full build of the project I work on, which can easily be triggered by modifying any of the important header files. if I had to do my job on your laptop from 2009, I'd never get anything done.

Came here to say exactly this. I’m waiting for Amazon to deliver the new CPU cooler I ordered today so my i9-9900k can run flat out for longer when building, after I spent so much of yesterday waiting 20 mins for another build when my attempted fixed didn’t pan out. (Though probably more of a reflection on how painful C++ as a language is if you have to touch a common header file).
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