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SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

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Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#51

Post by languagehacker »

This is a fair interpretation of zoning laws, but I don't think it respects the reality of most coffee shops. What I liked about Workshop (other than being one of the only places in FiDi you could get Stumptown for a while) was that it was explicit about the real trade going on in many coffee shops.

If you're spending more than a half hour at a coffee shop, you're there to work. You're playing this game where you're trying to figure out whether you've bought enough coffee not to look like a complete mooch. You're also hoping the free Wi-Fi is up and working, and that nothing is going to happen that will disrupt the work you're doing.

Workshop offered a great cafe menu, but most importantly offered assurances around seating, quiet spaces, and high-quality Wi-Fi. It was a hybrid model, and one I don't think there are decent laws established for them. This is a bummer, and probably a bad application of by-the-book zoning in a city where those same laws are being used to prevent way more important things like improved housing density.

But that's SF for you, I guess.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#52

Post by Lukeas14 »

I once spent an hour sitting in the SF planning office on Mission and it was the most eye opening experience in regards to the city's building issues. Most of the discussions are done in the open so you can hear the conversations between the planners and people looking to get permits. Almost every convo started with "...so your permit looks good but I won't approve it until you make [some irrelevant, arbitrary change]". They would look through historical Google Maps images and find temporary backyard sheds, windows that had been replaced or door frames that were painted and refuse to issue until these changes were reverted.

I understand the need of a planning department to enforce safety codes, plan large construction like the Salesforce tower and make traffic decisions. But every discussion I heard that day was a planner making completely subjective decisions that, in my mind, shouldn't be anybody's business but the building owner. No wonder we have problems building enough housing when so much effort is exerted dealing with such minor design decisions.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#53

Post by peterwwillis »

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 wrote: post #38

Zoning laws are so backwards that it borders on parody. Can we get a state-wide referendum to eliminate all but the most important zoning regulations and then let the cities grow naturally?

How do you think zoning laws came about? We had no zoning laws, and then cities grew naturally, and then we had zoning laws. They exist as a result of real problems in the world. Now, some of those problems were definitively wrong [1], and we should clearly have a way to review, modify, and revoke zoning which is bad for society. But throwing them all out and doing nothing else is a quick way to welcome them right back.

[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning_in_the_United_States#Ra...)

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#54

Post by closeparen »

zip1234 wrote: post #9

So what good do use based zoning rules do? I can see prohibiting heavy industrial or chemical in residential areas but outside of that it seems like more harm than good.

Restrictive commercial zoning limits competition for a space, enabling businesses that could not otherwise afford to be there. It’s a way for a community to inject some central planning and override the market when they disagree with its wisdom, e.g to kill the local independent coffee shop in favor of Blue Bottle.

It’s also a way to concentrate traffic where there’s infrastructure to support it, and limit it where there isn’t.

Proponents would say that that a good central plan adds value more value to the city as a whole than it costs in local inefficiencies.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#55

Post by oppositelock »

Lukeas14 wrote: post #52

I once spent an hour sitting in the SF planning office on Mission and it was the most eye opening experience in regards to the city's building issues. Most of the discussions are done in the open so you can hear the conversations between the planners and people looking to get permits. Almost every convo started with "...so your permit looks good but I won't approve it until you make [some irrelevant, arbitrary change…

It's not just SF, I sat in on some such meetings in Mountain View. It's petty tyrants in positions of power showing the plebes the extent of their authority. One of them even acknowledged that everything was up to code in a restaurant, but they wanted changes made anyway due to subjective aesthetics.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#56

Post by kapuasuite »

wtvanhest wrote: post #6

I used Workshop Cafe a little and liked it, but I agree with the planning commission. All they were asking was for 2/3rds of the space to be available to the public. They could have made 1/3 reservable. They could have charged for wifi in the other 2/3rds or came up with other ideas.

Why does a business need to appease one agency or another for the privilege of operating? If it’s dangerous to have them in that location they should be prohibited - if it isn’t, they should be allowed to operate their business without preconditions. The purpose of zoning should be to minimize actual harm, not micromanage the local economy.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#57

Post by kapuasuite »

brudgers wrote: post #42
mlyle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assume this is a zooming regulation specific to SF? What would be the rationale behind it? Preventing tech converting all the retail and restaurant space to offices.

Right, but a bit more subtle. The Cafe was invited to apply for conditional use. It appears (from my limited research) that within the Financial District (and whatever overlays might apply) ground floor office use is not allowed by right. Conditional use means that office use on the ground floor requires approval based on what is actually proposed. The Cafe might readily be approved as a conditional use or might be a…

Does by right even exist in San Francisco? My understanding is all land use is subject to review and approval at the discretion of the Board of Supervisors.

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#58

Post by mlyle »

brudgers wrote: post #42
mlyle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assume this is a zooming regulation specific to SF? What would be the rationale behind it? Preventing tech converting all the retail and restaurant space to offices.

Right, but a bit more subtle. The Cafe was invited to apply for conditional use. It appears (from my limited research) that within the Financial District (and whatever overlays might apply) ground floor office use is not allowed by right. Conditional use means that office use on the ground floor requires approval based on what is actually proposed. The Cafe might readily be approved as a conditional use or might be a…

Yah, I agree that a conditional use permit might be granted. The person just asked the rationale behind disallowing office use (by default).

Re: SF Zoning Department rules that Workshop Cafe is an office, forcing it to close [pdf]

#59

Post by mlyle »

kapuasuite wrote: post #57
brudgers wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but a bit more subtle. The Cafe was invited to apply for conditional use. It appears (from my limited research) that within the Financial District (and whatever overlays might apply) ground floor office use is not allowed by right. Conditional use means that office use on the ground floor requires approval based on what is actually proposed. The Cafe might readily be approved as a conditional use or might be a…

Does by right even exist in San Francisco? My understanding is all land use is subject to review and approval at the discretion of the Board of Supervisors.

What he's saying is that you can use land according to existing zoning code requirements without explicit zoning approval... Or you can convince the local Planning Commission to approve another use.
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