Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 186 posts

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#51

Post by idoubtit »

tus88 wrote: post #21

... in the middle of the cold war .

And as soon as the cold war ended, in 1989, the USA invaded Panama to put their own man as president. In the process, the USA killed more than 3000 civilians. The man who ordered the invasion was George H W Bush, a former director of the CIA.

And if you're looking for more recent cases, the USA supported the military coup in Egypt in 2013. The government even refused to call it a coup because of legal implications. This was an important blow to democracy in the region. The authoritarian evolution in Turkey is partly due to this.

I'm not saying other democracies are better than the USA. I'm French, and my country still cannot face its past in Algeria. And France still supports dictators, like a 2018 bombing in Chad recently proved. But over the last couple of decades, I don't think any country killed more foreign civilians than the USA did, by a large margin. Even Saudi Arabia and UAE, with their wars in Yemen and Lybia, can't compare.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#52

Post by haecceity »

thdrdt wrote: post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

Unfortunately most people cannot see things from another’s point of view.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#53

Post by sudoaza »

idoubtit wrote: post #51
tus88 wrote: post #21

... in the middle of the cold war .

And as soon as the cold war ended, in 1989, the USA invaded Panama to put their own man as president. In the process, the USA killed more than 3000 civilians. The man who ordered the invasion was George H W Bush, a former director of the CIA. And if you're looking for more recent cases, the USA supported the military coup in Egypt in 2013. The government even refused to call it a coup because of legal implications. T…

As recently as last year a USA backed coup removed the president elected by more than 50% in Bolivia because they nationalized gas and were exploiting lithium themselves.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#54

Post by fit2rule »

missosoup wrote: post #23
GorgeIo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling..." Count how many times US has invaded other countries since 1949 and then come to your senses. I personally know a couple who came to my country from Ukraine because the Ukrainian fascists supported by the US were bombing their neighbourhood and killed their relatives. It was an orchestrated effort to spite Russia using Ukra…

This right here is a first-hand account of the '''good guy''' Russian angle. It nicely demonstrates the point I was making. Please don't engage with this individual in a flame war.

The anti-Russia narrative is also agitprop, of an equivalent degree of BS.

Please stop contributing to it.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#55

Post by entropyneur »

fit2rule wrote: post #48
entropyneur wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to dispute your point, but this strikes me as a rather wrong stick to measure countries' "badness". There's no difference between mistreating people within and outside of one's borders. Compared to the millions China is keeping in concentration camps the border tensions aren't even worth mentioning. Also, how does Iran not fit the same profile? It's currently #1 world news that their top official got bombed by th…

Americans, you need to understand this - and well: we do not compare China's concentration camps with your kiddy jails. We compare it with the million innocent people America slaughtered in its illegal wars, and which it continues to slaughter with impunity, under the cover of its heinous "Coalition" quasi-sovereign joint task forces, which exist solely to let Americans get away with murder, while none of us are look…

> Americans, you need to understand this - and well

I am a Belarusian replying to an Ukrainian in a comment thread about Russia, China and Iran. Nice rant though.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#56

Post by fit2rule »

missosoup wrote: post #26
wz1000 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger plane, and got away with complete impunity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

Someone did something bad. Therefore it's no longer bad for someone else to do it. ? I'm not seeing the 'good guy' POV here.

Alas you won't find an audience willing to provide such countenance to the mainstream Western narrative so easily.

Its a very untidy and uncomfortable discussion to have. All you have to do, is gain an understanding of the people who have been victimised by the Wests' illegal wars.

All other political biases fall to the side when confronted with an armless orphan who has been carried across Europe by her younger brother.

Geographically, Americans do not have the wherewithal to deal with this reality. American tourists don't go to the refugee camp facilities - they'd rather see the concentration camp museum.

If they did, indeed, have an idea of what life is like as a war refugee, say .. as a Yemeni or Syrian or Libyan or Iraqi child .. I believe the American people would finally arrest their war criminals. That is really the only way for the people of America to redeem themselves, and yet it gets harder and harder every day ..

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#57

Post by thdrdt »

ianai wrote: post #35
thdrdt wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well what else can we make of this? The only way forward is to stop judging people and come closer so we can start to understand each other.

Arguments that start on false premises can lead anywhere and appear valid. It’s logically not constructive. I’m thinking of the logic table for the implication.

Can you explain what you are trying to say?

Do you think the base of my argument is false? If so it would be helpful to point out why you think it is.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#58

Post by ljw1001 »

entropyneur wrote: post #18
thdrdt wrote: post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

I'm not sure what kind mental leap would take one from "USA has terrible foreign policy" to "authoritarianism is the way to go for my country". It just doesn't seem to be plausible. The fun thing about authoritarianism though is that you don't really have to want it to end up under it.

I'm not sure that's the argument people are making. For Iran, it was US overthrew our fledgling democracy and replaced him with a tyrant, whose oppression led to a(n Islamic) revolution, which just gave us a different kind of tyrant.

Part of the issue we see in the Middle East, IMO, is that Islamists got the upper hand because they were the only organizations that were tolerated under the oppressive regimes that existed in so many places (Iran, Iraq, Syria, the Gulf states, Egypt,...).

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#59

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

thdrdt wrote: post #32
Dinux wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but to a broader perspective the western world has at least 'some' degree of freedom. The same cannot be said for many parts of the world including much of the middle east

In the western world 'debt' is also promoted as freedom. So it's all about your definition of what freedom is. My personal definition of freedom is 'free of debt'

Freedom is basically capital, because the US is a plutocracy. You're either lucky enough to inherit economic freedom, or you can buy it - if you make enough money to be free of all debt and acquire substantial capital.

The opportunities to do this are strictly limited and anyone starting cold is against very tough odds. And the activities that are rewarded are strongly biased towards rent-seeking and monopolistic market exploitation over less aggressively self-serving provision of goods and services.

Obviously it's not impossible. But if you want true economic freedom, your personal and professional choices are - ironically - very tightly constrained.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#60

Post by lowdose »

AtlasLion wrote: post #47
lowdose wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with you. I do think China is becoming more and more the example people are looking at how to make progress. Politics aside the growth in wealth and it's distribution over the last 30 years have been magic. Most people living outside the USA are very negative about the United States because this president is a very "bad guy". I'm not under such a opinion but I find it increasingly hard to have a no…

"Most people living outside the USA are very negative about the United States because this president is a very "bad guy"" That's a very simplistic view of people outside the USA. Unlike US news that do no mention US proxy wars, veto votes and the like, other countries are well aware of US foreign policy and the terror it brings with it, be it in south America, Africa, the middle east or elsewhere.

Off course my opinion is based on a very selective draw during traveling to many countries. However the conversation has been trending more and more negative on the United States topic and it's form of "democracy".

Noam Chomsky has written elaborate on corporatism and i think this POTUS function as an amplifier.

I argue people are not bad informed but do generalize bad malpractice elements of the USA to all Americans. The election of this president and everything that followed is seen as evidence by many people the USA is crazy.

And my understanding of the people living in the USA is they are still viewing bad malpractice as unintended consequence of the capitalism experiment initiated by the other politic parties behavior on either side of the coin.

In contrast Putin is not Russia and Xi is not China.

Post reply on HN