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An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

news.mit.edu

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Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#51

Post by aero142 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #27
spazx wrote: post #26

Autism is characterized by autistic behavior. You cannot separate autistic behavior from an autistic person, it is simply their nature. These "mouse models" are inaccurate, as they're based on behavioral observations in the mice and likening them to human behavior. We don't really know how autism works and why, and we haven't discovered actual autistic mice. In other words, it's mostly extrapolation. Anything can "re…

> Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you probably shouldn't have kids. That's very much not the case, unfortunately. Many autistic kids are very low function. Their deviations in behavior are way more serious than just some qui…

I think many people are unaware of the difference between high functioning autism and low functioning autism. Severely autistic children often react violently to any deviation from their expected norm. Violent children turn into violent teenagers. A 160 pound human prone to violence is a huge issue for any teacher or care giver. Imagine if being bitten to the point of bleeding, being punched, and having broken bones was a common part of you job. For the record, I agree with the "let them be themselves" answer in most cases. Sometime who they are is a real problem.

Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#52

Post by zozbot234 »

detritus wrote: post #46
spazx wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>incapable of empathy or love for its parent Autistic people are not sociopaths, they are not incapable of empathy or love, they just struggle to understand when you're expressing it, or to express it in appropriate way. Your fear of being unable to communicate with your child is valid, but autistic people are not "broken".

You seem to be, by choice or haste, missing the conditions in my post - profoundly autistic people at the ends of the spectrum are, by societal standards 'broken' and are indeed incapable of empathy or love. It's not a nice thing to say or admit, but it is .. well, true. I have an autistic uncle who is not profoundly so, but is hard to communicate with and has problems existing by himself, often getting into trouble…

We know how kids who really might be "incapable of empathy or love" behave, and it's not the sort of stuff autistics do. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduct_disorder

Autistic kids are demonstrably not "incapable" of empathy as commonly understood. They may be impaired in their expression of it, but that's something quite different.

Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#53

Post by r00fus »

zensavona wrote: post #40
r00fus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm a parent of a kid on the spectrum) While the fear is natural, there are tons of other childhood conditions that are, in fact, worse than autism. Would you decline vaccines for yourself or your child because you fear they might "get autism" (which has been debunked). Edit: clarity

No, because vaccines don't cause your child to "get autism"

Thanks I clarified my comment.

Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#54

Post by spazx »

opportune wrote: post #44
spazx wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so black and white. Most autistic people aren't distinctly "low" or "high" functioning like that. They are otherwise fairly average people with a few traits that make things difficult, and appear "high" or "low" functioning depending on the environment they are subjected to. Why don't you ask an autistic person if they want to be cured? Go ahead. Jump on r/aspergers and ask them. They will tell you to go fly…

I am sure most nonverbal low functioning autistic people would want to be “cured” if they could answer. I agree there is no need to treat autistic people who get along in society mostly fine, but people who can’t work, talk, or live on their own is probably where I would draw the line of those people needing actual treatment if it ever exists

Yes, but there is a difference between helpful therapies and treatments, and "a cure".

Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#55

Post by pvaldes »

spazx wrote: post #26

Autism is characterized by autistic behavior. You cannot separate autistic behavior from an autistic person, it is simply their nature. These "mouse models" are inaccurate, as they're based on behavioral observations in the mice and likening them to human behavior. We don't really know how autism works and why, and we haven't discovered actual autistic mice. In other words, it's mostly extrapolation. Anything can "re…

Exact, and is even worse. We are taking the behaviour of an adult animal, a short lived one, strongly wired to have sex, bite other males at sight, chase off everybody from their territory and chew and eat other smaller animals and plants while avoid inminent death in form of many predators...

And they are living in captivity, between plastic toys and hamster wheels. Males in a cage, and females in another cage. An environment that for its evolution probably would be seen as normal as for us being abducted by aliens and living in an alien zoo for our entire lifes.

And we are taking that and extrapolating it to explain the behaviour to a human children.

Would be ridiculous even for neurotypical children to expect them to behave like vicious sex driven mammals.

Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#56

Post by allovernow »

spazx wrote: post #45
anotherman554 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible that people so invested in the identity of having Aspergers that they hang out on /aspergers would tell you to fly a kite. That's hardly a representative sample of people with the condition. Most are probably living their lives and not hanging out on /aspergers.

Nice goalpost scoot. I'm telling you that if you ask any autistic person, they may express dissatisfaction with their autistic troubles, but they would tell you they would not want to be "cured" or "changed", because they would no longer be themselves.

GP's point isn't to move goalposts, it's that your example is not indicative of the autistic community at large - it's a biased sample and, in line with GP's reasoning, I suspect there is a substantial proportion of (especially high functioning) autists who would strongly consider a cure. Imagine having normal, innate desires for friendship and companionship, but being unable to form such relationships and being crushingly aware of this fact. It's a miserable, deeply lonely existence and some of us would consider giving up "ourselves" in order to have a chance at a more socially fulfilling life.

Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#57

Post by 4ec0755f5522 »

detritus wrote: post #46
spazx wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>incapable of empathy or love for its parent Autistic people are not sociopaths, they are not incapable of empathy or love, they just struggle to understand when you're expressing it, or to express it in appropriate way. Your fear of being unable to communicate with your child is valid, but autistic people are not "broken".

You seem to be, by choice or haste, missing the conditions in my post - profoundly autistic people at the ends of the spectrum are, by societal standards 'broken' and are indeed incapable of empathy or love. It's not a nice thing to say or admit, but it is .. well, true. I have an autistic uncle who is not profoundly so, but is hard to communicate with and has problems existing by himself, often getting into trouble…

"Lack of empathy" in ASD people does not refer to love of other people. It simply means ASD people have a hard time predicting the behavior of others. That's it. They can love just fine. It's a pervasive myth, unfortunately.

Indeed ASD people often suffer from extreme empathy e.g. towards animals or something upsetting on the news (war/famine/etc.)

Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#58

Post by 4ec0755f5522 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #52
detritus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be, by choice or haste, missing the conditions in my post - profoundly autistic people at the ends of the spectrum are, by societal standards 'broken' and are indeed incapable of empathy or love. It's not a nice thing to say or admit, but it is .. well, true. I have an autistic uncle who is not profoundly so, but is hard to communicate with and has problems existing by himself, often getting into trouble…

We know how kids who really might be "incapable of empathy or love" behave, and it's not the sort of stuff autistics do. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositional_defiant_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduct_disorder Autistic kids are demonstrably not "incapable" of empathy as commonly understood. They may be impaired in their expression of it, but that's something quite different.

There's debate whether ODD even exists or is just PDA profile of ASD. I think it's PDA but not expert in this area by any means.

I should say-- I think it's often PDA misdiagnosed as ODD. Which is very sad for those ASD kids not getting the help they need (because the "treatments" for ODD are probably not going to work well on a PDA kid).

Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#59

Post by dang »

spazx wrote: post #35
zozbot234 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leave autistic people alone and let them be themselves. Seriously, I can't believe some people would rather let their kid die of polio than believe they could be autistic. If you think having an autistic child is that terrible, you probably shouldn't have kids. That's very much not the case, unfortunately. Many autistic kids are very low function. Their deviations in behavior are way more serious than just some qui…

And is that worse than getting polio?

Would you please not post high-indignation, low-information comments to HN? I've sure you have good reason to feel strongly on this topic, but the rant you posted above has little to do with the article, and now you're taking the thread further into pure inflammation. That is what we're trying to avoid on this site.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: An immune molecule can sometimes influence the social behavior of mice: study

#60

Post by 4ec0755f5522 »

mamon wrote: post #29
spazx wrote: post #26

Autism is characterized by autistic behavior. You cannot separate autistic behavior from an autistic person, it is simply their nature. These "mouse models" are inaccurate, as they're based on behavioral observations in the mice and likening them to human behavior. We don't really know how autism works and why, and we haven't discovered actual autistic mice. In other words, it's mostly extrapolation. Anything can "re…

It's weird that it has to be repeated so often on HN, but: Autism is not a superpower. Yes, sometimes mildly autistic people can become genius mathematicians, or whatever, but most of autistic people simply cannot function by themselves, they struggle with everyday things. So no, we can't just "leave them alone", we should try and understand what causes autism, and maybe someday we can cure it.

Curing ASD is a bad idea. Helping symptoms may be a good idea.

There's an assumption here that NT socialization is the "correct" socialization. That NT behaviors, world-view, all that thing, is what is "normal" and "correct". This is just straight up bias. You want ASD people to be "normal" for your definition of normal but there's actually no natural law that makes it so. Just the tyranny of the majority.

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