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Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

paulgraham.com

51–54 of 54 posts

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#51
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah you get paid the average cost of having that work done , not the average value at all . That may well be 10x what you're paid for the work, in some positions.

The surplus value wasn't provided by you though, the people who built the company added it. I know that I wouldn't make enough contributions to warrant my current salary if I worked for most other companies than the one I work for now, so they actually give me more money than the value I bring. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

I don't think it makes much sense to assume that all of what's not "surplus value" (the "due" return of capital, I take it?) is already captured by labor, which is what the claim that all the value one creates over one's compensation is "provided by [...] the people who built the company" means, I'm pretty sure. In fact I think things get pretty messy and unhelpful when we start trying to attribute the "proper" due of anyone involved in this. You get what you get, and if your employer's not getting more than that they should probably look at hiring someone else, and if they could pay you less for exactly the same return on your labor they absolutely would, even though the value you're creating is the same, which tells me that no, capital is not somehow responsible for all that extra value, and I don't think it makes much sense to put things in those terms, even—like workers, they just get whatever they can manage to get.

[EDIT] point remains, your wage is the cost of having that work done by labor in the market, unrelated to the value (return on investment, say) it provides, except that same value puts a de facto cap on the wage. If capital can get a 10% return paying $20/hr, they'll do it. If they could find a way to do the exact same thing but pay $10/hr, they would. "Value" remains constant.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the things you mentioned can still be categorized as "the basics." This forum is a particularly bad example to use, considering that it's more-or-less built on technology that is over two decades old (i.e. an online forum.)

What are the basics. Every time you expand the definition - as you just did - it takes more labor time to make it. You can put the line between basics and luxury anyplace you want, but the amount of labor it takes to make basic society possible goes changes with each change.

I agree with you. There's almost never a free meal, nor a reason why there should be. I still think a lot of jobs today are unimportant and exist due to people's lack of options.

I also agree with loh's comment here: "I dream of a future where everyone has all of their basic needs met through technology, giving people the capacity to focus on doing the things they are naturally good at doing, things they enjoy"

It would seem that the current system in place is what's required to get there, but maybe it's just slow to change for good.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#53

I would say hiring is dead for a different reason: permanent employment is becoming a meaningless deal in many places. Especially in the US, you can be out on the street in 15 minutes with little or no protection against that. It's a very one sided deal where you shovel shit in exchange for a lower income. So, people treat their employers as customers and have less reservations about firing their customer. The averag…

You seem to be complaining that 1) you can be let go at any time and 2) there's a shortage of talent, so people can switch jobs easily. Both can certainly be true, but it seems somewhat contradictory to complain about both at the same time.

I'm not complaining about a lack of talent (what gave you that impression?) but merely expect market rates for what I do. When I'm freelancing, I get a lot more than when I do the same job in the context of a normal job. So, I don't think I will go back to a salaried job; at least not at the rates most companies are advertising their more senior roles (I'm in Europe). The value proposition is simply wrong. I get fake job protection that is worth nothing the second my employer decides they want to get rid of me in exchange for less money and a corporate structure that is perpetually dragging its heels when it comes to raises, promotions, etc. The only way up is sideways, which is why the average tenure is decreasing for salaried people. There's no value in lingering in a salaried job. The only people that do that are mostly those you shouldn't be hiring. Companies that lose talent should be kicking themselves for being to stingy every time that happens.

The difference is quite stark. A senior freelance rate in the Berlin area (where I am) is around 100 euros an hour (properly senior, none of this "I dropped out of college 4 years ago and I'm a full stack ninja that can spell the word computer correctly"). That adds up to about 180K euros a year if you can work a full year (challenging; but not impossible if you are good). I'm actually considering raising my rates at this point. Unlike SFO, you can live like a king for that kind of money in Berlin (think premium real estate in the best neighborhoods, nice restaurants, etc.).

All the jobs targeted at me on Linked sort of peak out at 80-100K. There's a clear mismatch there between demand and supply that is not reflected in salaries. It's a non starter once you charge 100 an hour. Also, you have to wonder what kind of person would settle for that when they can charge nearly double as a freelancer and just take a couple of sabbaticals in between projects without downsides. From what I've seen, a lot of companies continue to ignore Brooke's law and just have a lot of B's hiring C's to compensate for the fact that they can't get A's for a C's salary.

When I'm hiring (which I am currently in the Minsk area), I'm likewise biased to people that are either just starting out and talented or really senior already. If you have the budget, a couple of really good people can outperform a much larger team. Ultimately, you need a mix of both and you get what you pay for. My expectation is to work with people for 2-3 years max before they move on. Currently the company I work for is a US inc but our tech team is in the EU and consists of freelancers. This is becoming more common as paying Bay area salaries for people that in any case act like they are freelancers is a very bad value proposition. For the same reason, a lot of Berlin based startups have teams across Eastern Europe. It's good value for money if you have a tight budget and can't afford the local talent. The price you pay is increased management overhead and dealing with a lot of travel and remote collaboration friction.

Re: Hiring Is Obsolete (2005)

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a different issue. But consumerism is needed to provide something of value back to those that gave their time to get you food and a roof.

Food and roofs didn't exist prior to 20th-century marketing and consumer-targeting psychology?

before 20th century marketing woman would spend the whole day preparing food. And you couldn't really have a decent way of owning a home.
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