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An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

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Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#51

Post by malvosenior »

> At the core of the open source ethos is the idea of liberty. Open source is about inverting power structures and creating access and opportunities for everyone.

I think the core idea of open source is that code should be shared for free. Not shared for free (with people I politically agree with). By policing who can use software, the author's of this letter are very much going against the spirit of open source.

It should not be the position of the tool maker to dictate who can use the tool they create. Once you put it out in the world, people you don't agree with will use your software (if you're lucky enough to have users that is).

I see no difference in slamming Github for having a customer certain activists don't like vs the MPAA cracking down on DeCSS.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#53

Post by burkaman »

ianai wrote: post #44
burkaman wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that if you see somebody doing something wrong, asking them to stop is an "inappropriate channel"?

These aren’t the people doing something wrong. GitHub staff are probably treated like second class Microsoft employees all the way up to the top management at github. Any one of them voicing concern or outrage over Microsoft’s or GitHubs customer contract(s) could very well lead to their termination - even at the C-level of github or whatever is the top of their management chain.

The letter is addressed to GitHub leadership. If Microsoft does not allow them to terminate a contract for widespread ethical and legal violations, they should quit.

The CEO of GitHub is not going to starve if he gets fired.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#54

Post by ratsmack »

burkaman wrote: post #37
013a wrote: post #4

These open source projects certainly love the very high quality, free services Github offers them, until they start learning how the sausage is made. ICE has done, and continues to do some terrible things. Horrible, horrible things; all legal things, but nonetheless horrible. But, frankly, if its legal, I am much less comfortable with Github's users subverting the US legal system by backdooring their moral code into…

As you know, people are capable of voting and protesting in addition to signing a petition. Also, the stance of "you shouldn't tell an organization you don't like what they're doing unless it's literally illegal" is pretty wild. Nevertheless, since it seems to matter to you, ICE constantly breaks the law: https://www.clearinghouse.net/detail.php?id=15649 https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/02/how-badly-did-cb...…

Most of your links are cases of "alleged" wrongdoing by immigration officials. Stating that ICE "constantly breaks the law" is hyperbole at best.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#55

Post by NullPrefix »

ng7j5d9 wrote: post #42
Eldt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering its size and popularity, why exactly can GitHub not be picky and choosey?

How would that even work? I imagine GitHub has a pretty typical sales department right now, with salesfolks who try to make deals selling licenses to anyone willing to buy (with perhaps a handful of well-understood exceptions, like no sales to Iran or North Korea). If they add an ethical vetting layer in there, ok, sure this one is an easy call. But people will continue to complain about other government agencies, fo…

>but I'm not sure spending significant amounts of time investigating organizations and adjudicating the results and deciding

You don't need to do any of that, just wait and let the angry mob tell you who to not do business with.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#56

Post by allovernow »

rexpop wrote: post #30
staticassertion wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Keep that shit out of code", you say, while software services take millions of dollars in government contracts, and spend millions more lobbying. Like ???????????

This is a crucial point. Status quo sycophants tell us to "take politics outside," but what they mean is "take YOUR politics outside, and make more room for MINE." Politics is money and power. Tech is money and power. Tech is politics. And anyone who says otherwise is trying to undermine your power by obscuring this reality.

This comment is deeply ironic and lacking in self awareness.

>take YOUR politics outside, and make more room for MINE.

The only ones trying to enforce political opinions on software development are those who claim the status quo is broken. Those who push for vague COCs as political tools to oust anyone with inappropriate opinions. People who put developer feelings over merit and productivity. The rest, and majority, of us are just trying to write code.

The only way to legitimately act as though "everything is political" is by playing a bastardized version of six degrees of separation, and in doing so insufferably forcing the polarization of any environment in which one participates. If you can't separate politics from work and entertainment, you have a serious problem.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#57

Post by malvosenior »

burkaman wrote: post #53
ianai wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren’t the people doing something wrong. GitHub staff are probably treated like second class Microsoft employees all the way up to the top management at github. Any one of them voicing concern or outrage over Microsoft’s or GitHubs customer contract(s) could very well lead to their termination - even at the C-level of github or whatever is the top of their management chain.

The letter is addressed to GitHub leadership. If Microsoft does not allow them to terminate a contract for widespread ethical and legal violations, they should quit. The CEO of GitHub is not going to starve if he gets fired.

If the CEO of GitHub gets fired it should be because he mismanaged communicating that GitHub shouldn't be the moral arbiter its customers. I think GitHub leadership's morals align with Microsoft's here. I also share this moral framework, I don't want private companies creating an extra-judicial layer of subjective morals. You shouldn't pick and choose who your customers are for many reasons.

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#58

Post by burkaman »

ratsmack wrote: post #54
burkaman wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you know, people are capable of voting and protesting in addition to signing a petition. Also, the stance of "you shouldn't tell an organization you don't like what they're doing unless it's literally illegal" is pretty wild. Nevertheless, since it seems to matter to you, ICE constantly breaks the law: https://www.clearinghouse.net/detail.php?id=15649 https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/02/how-badly-did-cb...…

Most of your links are cases of "alleged" wrongdoing by immigration officials. Stating that ICE "constantly breaks the law" is hyperbole at best.

I found many decided cases, but you're right, it takes an incredibly long time for these cases to be resolved, so many of them are still technically in question.

Note that many of my examples, which I found in about 10 minutes of searching, are single cases of violations that happen constantly. For example, I listed a couple US citizens that were wrongfully arrested by ICE, which happened thousands of times: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-citizens-ice-20180...

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#59

Post by decebalus1 »

qwerty110291 wrote: post #6
decebalus1 wrote: post #3

Honestly, who gives a shit? The whole free market deal everyone is preaching about should just fix the problem. Git is decentralized. If you have a political/ethical problem with Github, move your stuff to Gitlab or host it yourself. It's not a big deal. Although I share some of the feelings in that letter, Github is free to do whatever it wants and we are (still) free to take our business wherever we want.

GitHub is a near monopolist. Several large projects like Python have been moved to GitHub under eager participation of Microsoft employees. Open source is no longer free, so we do not have a choice.

> GitHub is a near monopolist. Several large projects like Python have been moved to GitHub

No. No no no no. Stop using Git like SVN. Fork the projects if you don't agree with the maintainers choosing to stay with Github. Don't ask nicely, write manifests, sign petitions, etc.. fucking act!

Re: An open letter to GitHub from the maintainers of open source projects

#60

Post by burkaman »

malvosenior wrote: post #57
burkaman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The letter is addressed to GitHub leadership. If Microsoft does not allow them to terminate a contract for widespread ethical and legal violations, they should quit. The CEO of GitHub is not going to starve if he gets fired.

If the CEO of GitHub gets fired it should be because he mismanaged communicating that GitHub shouldn't be the moral arbiter its customers. I think GitHub leadership's morals align with Microsoft's here. I also share this moral framework, I don't want private companies creating an extra-judicial layer of subjective morals. You shouldn't pick and choose who your customers are for many reasons.

Ok, fine, but I disagree and I'd like to tell the CEO that I don't share his moral framework. Why is sending him a letter an inappropriate channel?
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