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Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

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Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#51

Post by icegreentea2 »

ggambetta wrote: post #30
claudeganon wrote: post #20

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

I’ve yet to see any rational or coherent defense of why these (or any) companies should function like democracies. Company X offers to pay me to do job Y. My two options, as I see it, are taking the job and doing Y, or refusing to do Y and therefore not taking the job. I don't understand the logic of "I'll take the job but then refuse to do Y", except if I assume ill-intent from the person taking the job.

I don't think most people want to organize to avoid doing job Y that they specifically agreed to do.

The opposite side of your logic, is that if you assume good faith on the side of the job taker, then the want to do the job that they signed up for, and is willing to do what it takes to make sure they are able to do that job in a safe, efficient, and non-soul crushing manner.

In addition, conditions can change from the initial agreement of employment. Lots of stuff about workplace environments are not fully captured in job contracts, and are so subject to change. You don't need to assume bad-faith from a person to understand why the might want to have a say in how things change. After all, they agreed to a job under a certain set of implied environments.

Companies do not have to function like democracies. However, companies that try to harness the moral and ethical motivation of their workers should always be aware of how to keep company actions and goals sufficiently aligned with those of their workers to be able to tap into that extra motivation.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#52

Post by dominotw »

claudeganon wrote: post #20

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

> workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction.

Is there is an example of how this works in practise. wondering how they get consensus and do workers really want this.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#53

Post by claudeganon »

dominotw wrote: post #52
claudeganon wrote: post #20

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

> workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. Is there is an example of how this works in practise. wondering how they get consensus and do workers really want this.

Check out the “All Things Co-Op” podcast that’s part of the “Democracy at Work” project:

https://www.democracyatwork.info/atc

They walk through all of this with actual worker cooperatives and people researching and organizing around cooperative economic models.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#54

Post by glogla »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #48
ggambetta wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does owning a sewing machine suddenly bestow upon you dictatorial powers? Why do you insist in throwing the word "dictatorship" around? Owning a sewing machine and paying someone to use it on your behalf should absolutely bestow you the power to choose what that person makes for you, while being paid by you, and while using your machine. How can this be controversial?

> Owning a sewing machine and paying someone to use it on your behalf should absolutely bestow you the power to choose what that person makes for you Let's take a look at this. Your contributions to the end product are: - Owning a sewing machine - Paying someone to use it Their contributions are: - Making the thing (say, sewing a shirt) I think there is an inherent tension between thinking about which of these is mor…

There's inevitably going to be conflict between then owner of the sewing machine and someone who makes the thing - because when the thing gets sold, the money gets redistributed between owner of the machine and whoever made the thing.

When one gets more money, the other gets less. There is no way out of this, as long as owner of the machine and whoever makes the thing are different people.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#55

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

friedman23 wrote: post #43
claudeganon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the premise that owning something gives you unilateral control over the actions of another person has historically and philosophically been quite controversial. Why did peasants revolt over feudal ownership of land? Why did indigenous people revolt against settler colonialism? Why did the American Civil War happen?

> I would say the premise that owning something gives you unilateral control over the actions of another person has historically and philosophically been quite controversial I disagree. It is not historically controversial for the owner of property to decide what is done with it.

>with it.

With what, the slaves? /s

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#56

Post by friedman23 »

glogla wrote: post #49
friedman23 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm paying them, if they don't want to be exploited by me don't accept my money. > because if you don't let them have a say, and exploit them, you might end up in a gulag, on guillotine or in wherever mass grave Mao put landlords It always comes down to violence with you people.

> It always comes down to violence with you people. As it should. If they don't accept your power, they starve (or not get healthcare if we're talking about contemporary USA). How is that any less violent? Because when you kill someone by starvation it's less bloody? Your kind are already using violence against us, you're just good at not caring about others or lying to yourself.

Why should you be given free things if you don't contribute to society? Are you going to give me some moral religious argument about how every life is sacred after arguing for class war?

Anyway, violence goes two ways. I'm not afraid of violence from people that can't even manage to survive in the modern world.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#57

Post by paulryanrogers »

friedman23 wrote: post #42
glogla wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they want to be able to defend themselves from you and people like you (who own the means of living) from abusing and exploiting them. Why do you mind if they have a say? If you don't plan on abusing and exploiting them, there's no harm, right? EDIT: to put it into words I would think someone like you might understand better (power and money instead of empathy and solidarity) - because if you don't let them h…

I'm paying them, if they don't want to be exploited by me don't accept my money. > because if you don't let them have a say, and exploit them, you might end up in a gulag, on guillotine or in wherever mass grave Mao put landlords It always comes down to violence with you people.

> I'm paying them, if they don't want to be exploited by me don't accept my money.

If there is healthy competition among employers then workers have a real choice. If not then declining your money could mean: live destitute or starve.

As companies consolidate and collude (intentionally or subconsciously) even cushy office workers may face exploitation.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#58

Post by friedman23 »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #55
friedman23 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would say the premise that owning something gives you unilateral control over the actions of another person has historically and philosophically been quite controversial I disagree. It is not historically controversial for the owner of property to decide what is done with it.

>with it. With what, the slaves? /s

I don't know if you are trying to be disingenuous or are mocking people that would think this way.

But when someone comes into my house I have some control over what they are allowed to do within my house and I can ask them to leave with the support of the law if they don't obey my wishes.

When I enter a voluntary employment agreement and give an employee access to my equipment the same thing applies.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#60

Post by o-__-o »

icegreentea2 wrote: post #17
ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

There are two ways (optimistic, and cynical) to look at why you would want some form of labour organization, even in a situation like being a google engineer. The optimistic view is that they believe that Google is a great place, capable of doing great things, but hamstrung by their current environment, and that giving labour a stronger voice will let Google do the great things they believe that Google can and should…

Not picking a side here just commenting.. if a Union is passed then the stock will likely tank washing up benefits for a long time (future value is diminished now that their free cash is not available for value building activities).

You cannot lock in future benefits short of shutting down a company, you can assume future benefits from diligent planning and business operations but it is never guaranteed.

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