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Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

thetyee.ca

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Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#51
post #45
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I wrote the comment in the manner that I did. There is an ongoing confusion about what is the free market and what is corporatism/fascism. The free market provides for free competition between individuals where all transactions are voluntary and no force is used to interfere with any interactions between parties. In a corporatist/fascist environment the government uses force to interfere in nearly all asp…

At the same time, you shouldn't confuse a regulatory system that gives corporations whatever they want with socialism. If there was no crtc, they would already be billing this way. It's a lot harder for a free market to curb monopolies in Canada, as we are a vast and comparatively sparsely populated country. I would imagine the cost of setting up an infrastructure across the country for so few users would not be viab…

The difference between the government owning and the government not owning but controlling a corporate entity(s) are irrelevant to me. If anything, the government sets up the conditions for monopolies and oligopolies to exist.

> If it were not for the crtc, bell would never ever have shared their infrastructure with smaller companies and the free market would have delivered us a monopoly for sure.

How do you know this?

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#52
post #36

This really disturbs me. I just moved to Seattle where I signed up for Comcast internet. A couple of days later, my connection stopped working until I activated my account on comcast.com. I did, and the first thing I saw was High-Speed Internet Data Usage: 17% 43GB of 250GB They sure hide that fact when you signup, not that I have any options, as Comcast is the only provider where I live. This is a horrible direction…

Same here. I'm with BT in the UK and I'm on an unlimited* plan with a fair usage policy. This is fine by me, I held off downloading until night time (for both my own convenience and others) but because I had 2mb/s download and a Steam library of 200+ games, I figured I may as well DL my entire library at once. After a couple of days I'd downloaded over 300GB, one night I get an email saying blah blah fair usage cap has been hit. So now I'm capped at 1mbps between 5PM and midnight every day for 1 month (thankfully the cap is lifted tomorrow) because my "unlimited" plan has hard defined limits that aren't publicised. Try finding the limit for the unlimited plan I have and it doesn't exist, yet EVERYONE gets capped at 300GB/m. In a normal month I use ~150GB and would stick to that if I'd known about the defined limit, the misleading nature of it sucks.

I don't mind limits, unlimited is impossible, but when the limit is the same for everyone regardless of how the service is used and then tout it as unlimited... it's ridiculous.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#53
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who keeps modding you down, you certainly are 'adding to the conversation', sorry about that. > Your complaint seemed to be entirely based upon the difficulties in getting broadband in a sparsely populated area. No, it is mostly centered around Bell playing dirty. Getting broadband in a sparsely populated area is just an example of how they use their resources. Using the legal system to put the squeeze o…

In the Cogent example, Bell is legally required to let Cogent use their loop for a low maintenance cost. That is not what this issue is about, and nothing about that has changed or will change. The case here is that these small ISPs are not only terminating the loop, they're also using Bell's pipes beyond the termination, with contracts that were enforced when Bell really was a bonafide monopoly. There are actually a…

> Bell is legally required to let Cogent use their loop for a low maintenance cost.

Yes, that's because they own all the lines and Cogent has no other way to sign you up as a customer in a way that would be worth their while.

> The case here is that these small ISPs are not only terminating the loop, they're also using Bell's pipes beyond the termination, with contracts that were enforced when Bell really was a bonafide monopoly.

So, again, what choice do they have?

> There are actually a lot of competitive options when you're looking for bulk bandwidth, will Bell being a small, small player.

If that were really true don't you think these ISPs would switch to those competitors with their 'competitive options' instead of waging silly lawsuits?

Bandwidth is cheap. So cheap that it's hilarious to see the rates that Bell now charges these ISPs for transit.

Really, Canada just took a giant step backwards in time and you are cheering it on and I can't see what reasons you would have for that other than that you perceive Bell to somehow have a god given right to a chunk of the turnover of each and every bit of data that gets moved in Canada.

It really should not be that way, the sooner it ends the better. Every company that can afford it should be allowed to put in 'last mile' connections, and every company that can afford it should be allowed to use the former monopolists infrastructure at a cost-plus basis (and not a metered basis). That's the only way the situation will ever get to normal.

Canada is hurting it's citizens interests and the interests of Canada as a player in the global economy by putting the population at a disadvantage as compared to other countries.

Have a look at Korea for what's possible.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Cogent example, Bell is legally required to let Cogent use their loop for a low maintenance cost. That is not what this issue is about, and nothing about that has changed or will change. The case here is that these small ISPs are not only terminating the loop, they're also using Bell's pipes beyond the termination, with contracts that were enforced when Bell really was a bonafide monopoly. There are actually a…

> Bell is legally required to let Cogent use their loop for a low maintenance cost. Yes, that's because they own all the lines and Cogent has no other way to sign you up as a customer in a way that would be worth their while. > The case here is that these small ISPs are not only terminating the loop, they're also using Bell's pipes beyond the termination, with contracts that were enforced when Bell really was a bonaf…

So, again, what choice do they have?

Twisted-pair sucks, actually, and Bell's monopoly is on dead technology. We only use it as a backup line in a worst case situation. We actually had a number of options, which is what we used for our primary line.

Though I'm not even sure what your point is.

If that were really true don't you think these ISPs would switch to those competitors with their 'competitive options' instead of waging silly lawsuits?

IT IS TRUE. Accept that as a reality, because it is reality. If bandwidth is as cheap as you claim, they WOULD use those alternatives, now wouldn't they? They have an economic model based upon basically an agreement that was punitively pushed onto Bell because of their monopoly, back when being the big telco made them the top dog.

I'm not cheering on anything but reality. You have ignored or sidestepped every reality I have presented, and keep up with this ridiculous illusion that Bell has any ounce of a provider monopoly in Canada.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#55

I'll provide one data point of how this affects Canadian internet users. I currently have no caps with TekSavvy and pay $39 a month. Starting from March 1st, I will pay $31.95/mo with a 25 GB cap. Any gigabyte over the limit will cost about 2 bucks. Now, you can buy a block at discounted prices. According to TekSavvy, based on my internet usage, I will need to buy at least a 275 GB extra block. Believe it or not, I d…

I'm in no way trying to hijack the thread, but where I live, I pay $45/month for a 4 GB cap and 2$ per extra gigabyte. Theoretically, I should get 512kbits per second. Practically, however, I'm getting an average of 300kb and a 200ms latency to US and EU servers. You want to know the cool part? I'm doing just fine. That is to say, if you take a step back and think about it, you could probably live off 25 GBs per months. Think of the poor souls half way around the world, that could probably help!

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#56

I'll provide one data point of how this affects Canadian internet users. I currently have no caps with TekSavvy and pay $39 a month. Starting from March 1st, I will pay $31.95/mo with a 25 GB cap. Any gigabyte over the limit will cost about 2 bucks. Now, you can buy a block at discounted prices. According to TekSavvy, based on my internet usage, I will need to buy at least a 275 GB extra block. Believe it or not, I d…

Yep. Most online services that have a presence in Canadian market will start to see cuts in their revenue. I was using NetFlix, but no longer. Many of my friends and co-workers are not using Dropbox for backup anymore. It makes no sense. Many went back to good old fashioned portable drives. In addition to purchasing less of online services, many people that I know refuse to buy anything from Bell and Rogers. No cable…

A total OT, but is "pardon my French" at all PC in Canada? Serious question!

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#57
post #23
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was socialism then either the government or the public would own Bell/Rogers/Telus. This is also not free-market capitalism. I'm not sure what you would call it.

This is called Oligopoly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly in half-assed capitalism. Note that this can be worse than monopoly because few competitors can essentially create informal cartels.

Yup. What frequently happens is that companies in an Oligopoly are able to collude to raise the barriers of entry, keeping out new competitors: sometimes with "help" of government regulations, sometimes because of lack of government regulation. As long as there are only a couple of them ( 80 percent of the industry), they can keep prices artificially higher than they need to be.

When there's no actual competition and little threat of new competitors entering the market, their incentive to innovate or become more efficient is diminished. Consumers end up paying too much for mediocre goods/services.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#58
If you're curious about the regulatory history of this issue - and who isn't, really - then CRTC decisions 2010-255 (http://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2010/2010-255.htm) and (http://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2011/2011-44.htm) 2011-44 may be of interest to you. The former is the final in a series of decisions relating to Bell's request to allow them to move independent ISPs onto usage-based billing, and the latter is the recent decision on (effectively) an appeal of that decision.

If you don't care to skim the whole thing, the bottom line is that Bell is now able to force usage-based billing onto third-party ISPs, but must offer them a discount of 15% under the retail price at which Bell sells those services directly to customers.

Some other interesting tidbits found in there:

Unsurprisingly, Bell was against the idea of any discount, saying that even without a discount it would still be possible for independent ISPs to differentiate their services on price and "other methods". It's not clear how they'd actually do this, however. Oh, and PS there's way to determine an acceptable discount rate even if those assertions weren't true, so we shouldn't have one.

There's a nice note in there that "[the] Commission also received a large number of comments, mostly from individuals, that almost unanimously opposed the Bell companies' applications [to force usage-based billing]" - thanks for pointing that out, CRTC.

Bell is only required to provide third-party access to their legacy ATM networks, and not their new fiber-optic networks. This makes sense - as I've never seen the service advertised - but I hadn't seen that in writing anywhere.

If Bell ever does some form of promotion where they let people sign up on unlimited plans, they have to let third-party ISPs do this as well - although the mechanics are unstated ("[The] Commission finds that...to the extent that each company chooses not to charge UBB rates to any existing or new retail customer, it is required to treat GAS ISPs on an equivalent basis.").

Bell was about ambitious as you can get in the list of things they requested from the CRTC in these decisions. I'm not saying that I like this decision (as of March 1st I'll be paying TekSavvy more for less), but the CRTC did OK for the little guy when you see what else Bell wanted.

No one - not Bell, not the CRTC - says this is a technical issue. It's not that Bell can't handle all the bandwidth people use (which require a technical ITMP, in CRTC-ese), but that they see this as a way to increase profits by charging people who use more bandwidth more money (hence it's an economic ITMP).

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#60

For those not familiar with Canadian bureaucracies, the CRTC governs telecom issues, similar to the FCC in the US. What may not be so obvious, even to Canadians, is that the members of the CRTC used to work for Bell, Rogers, Telus etc. Much like employees of the Treasury Department in the US, these people go from private sector to public sector and back continuously. A running joke at Rogers used to be that whenever…

This is very true, and the real root of the problem is abstraction and voter apathy. Of course it doesn't help any when Rogers and Bell own many of our major media outlets who might otherwise draw more attention to the issue.

No, not a conspiracy theory. If you're a publicly traded company capable of creating more wealth for your shareholders by creating an agreeable political environment it would be practically unethical to your shareholders not to take advantage of it... Regardless of the long term impact to your customers. After all, it's pretty hard to convince your board that you shouldn't do something that may negatively impact your customer base in 20 years, and should instead settle for less profit today.

So pretty much the same game as the states.

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