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40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

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Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#51

Post by aembleton »

Nasrudith wrote: post #36
mcv wrote: post #11

Corporations being able to book their profits wherever they find it most convenient to book them, is utterly unreasonable. They make their profits in specific markets, and should be paying their taxes there. Profits made from selling in the US should be paid in the US, profits made from selling in Germany should be paid there. The problem is, profits are the end result of a lot of complex corporate operations across…

The problem with that is the expenses are already arbitrary with international businesses. It is Hollywood accounting of making movies "never turn a profit" writ large and arguably more honest. If say Amazon UK "rents" their branding, storefront, and similiar from Amazon US the value. Essentially unfixed value goods + deductions = massive loophole. Unfixed fuzzy values are also very valuable to money launderers. It i…

That's why I think corporation tax should be applied to UK Sales - UK Costs.

- Buy in the branding from the US? That can't be deducted.

- Import from China? Can't be deducted.

- Employ more people. Deductible

- Buy more from UK suppliers. Deductible. Now go on and export more with that. Those export sales won't affect your tax.

Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#52

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

koolba wrote: post #29
mcv wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think paying taxes to the society you're profiting from is entirely reasonable. The problem is that corporations are free to profit in one country but declare those profits in another country. Corporations can do that but people can't. (What's even worse, US citizens (US "persons" even, you don't have to be a citizen for this) that live and work abroad and have nothing to do with the US, still have to pay their tax…

> What's even worse, US citizens (US "persons" even, you don't have to be a citizen for this) that live and work abroad and have nothing to do with the US, still have to pay their taxes there. That’s the price you pay to have the most powerful country in the world as a destination to which you can always retreat.

It is also worth noting that expats can exclude something like $100k from taxes with the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. My understanding is that relatively few US expats actually pay anything.

Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#53

Post by moosey »

cs702 wrote: post #9

Wow. Power , in all its forms -- economic, cultural, social, political -- is highly concentrated among impersonal giant corporations today. For this kind of legal tax avoidance would be impossible without mutual understanding, collaboration, and coordination across national boundaries among many disparate groups of people, all serving their corporate masters in one way or another (as their employers, as their custome…

I consider libertarianism to be contemporary monarchic support, due to exactly these issues. Corporations are run as monarchic or dictatorial structures, with some controls.

Ultimately, we have a choice: work hard to build the government that we want, or allow it to falter to the energies of the billionaire class. Or, even worse, allow the billionaire class choose the government that they want.

Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#54

Post by refurb »

Nasrudith wrote: post #36
mcv wrote: post #11

Corporations being able to book their profits wherever they find it most convenient to book them, is utterly unreasonable. They make their profits in specific markets, and should be paying their taxes there. Profits made from selling in the US should be paid in the US, profits made from selling in Germany should be paid there. The problem is, profits are the end result of a lot of complex corporate operations across…

The problem with that is the expenses are already arbitrary with international businesses. It is Hollywood accounting of making movies "never turn a profit" writ large and arguably more honest. If say Amazon UK "rents" their branding, storefront, and similiar from Amazon US the value. Essentially unfixed value goods + deductions = massive loophole. Unfixed fuzzy values are also very valuable to money launderers. It i…

Expenses aren’t arbitrary. Look up transfer pricing. There has been a ton of policy developed that severely limits what one subsidiary can charge another.

Are there still areas that need further tightening? Sure, but the prices charged within a company are not arbitrary.

Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#55

Post by mistrial9 »

the forty percent number here is quite ironic -- that is about the same percentage of your total income you will pay in California as a high-value working professional person.. high-tech engineer and a company, registered nurse at a huge health company.. like that .. forty percent of you check is -gone-, roughly.. you might get some back at tax time (yearly) if your papers are a certain way..

Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#56

Post by sgc »

mcv wrote: post #37
jfim wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another big issue with US taxes is that tax dollars aren't well spent. I'd be happy to pay the amount of taxes I'm currently paying in California if tax dollars were used well, but as it stands the public schools are underfunded, the highways are full of litter on the side, higher education isn't free, healthcare isn't universal, social security is underfunded, public transportation is dysfunctional, and so on.

It's a different issue, but yes, I can totally see how people would be less happy about paying taxes when those taxes are wasted on stupid crap and not used to improve the situation of them and their fellow citizens.

It's not totally separate. Paying taxes to fund orphanages, or to fund weapons of mass destruction, or actual wars that one considers to be intrinsically immoral, are radically different acts - and the moral act of payment is affected. To fund an orphanage might be considered an obligation by many, while to fund an immoral war might be considered a form of slavery and the funds taken under duress.

In other words, the morality of paying taxes is directly dependent on the legitimacy of the government demanding payment. And that legitimacy in part derives from their very actions, for which in an ideal wold they would be held accountable.

Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#57

Post by CaptainZapp »

jaimex2 wrote: post #44
systemtest wrote: post #3

I am fairly certain 40% of all citizens would shift their income to a tax haven if possible.

We do. If you have a trade just charge cash in hand and post believable losses every tax return.

Do I get that correctly and you're proposing tax evasion in all seriousness?

Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#58

Post by bob_theslob646 »

seibelj wrote: post #4

Corporations already pay myriad income taxes and distributed profits (capital gains and dividends) are taxed, paid by the recipient. Corporate tax is double taxation and is inefficient. The optimal corporate tax rate is zero and I wish people would understand this. 35% corporate tax rate the US had before the tax cut was completely absurd and the only corps that paid it were small ones that didn’t have in house staff…

Seriously this. It absolutely baffles me how many accountants and lawyers there are in the United States. I find it funny that there's not that much automation on that front.

We will always need people to check over numbers but the question is always going to be, how many and how much should you/they be paid to check over numbers versus building a system that can check for numbers and alert someone when something looks fishy...

Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#59

Post by disintegore »

moosey wrote: post #53
cs702 wrote: post #9

Wow. Power , in all its forms -- economic, cultural, social, political -- is highly concentrated among impersonal giant corporations today. For this kind of legal tax avoidance would be impossible without mutual understanding, collaboration, and coordination across national boundaries among many disparate groups of people, all serving their corporate masters in one way or another (as their employers, as their custome…

I consider libertarianism to be contemporary monarchic support, due to exactly these issues. Corporations are run as monarchic or dictatorial structures, with some controls. Ultimately, we have a choice: work hard to build the government that we want, or allow it to falter to the energies of the billionaire class. Or, even worse, allow the billionaire class choose the government that they want.

It's time for syndicalism to make a comeback.

Re: 40% of multinational profits are shifted to tax havens each year

#60

Post by Cthulhu_ »

exabrial wrote: post #6
systemtest wrote: post #3

I am fairly certain 40% of all citizens would shift their income to a tax haven if possible.

That's exactly how I feel about it. I don't think "paying" taxes are something that is honorable. The money is removed from you forcefully.

I've benefited greatly from the system, as did my siblings and parents, so I'm more than happy to pay taxes. Taxes:

- Make sure the area I live in is clean, safe, accessible - Paid for my college, allowing me and my siblings to end up with a higher education and (in my case) earning more than my parents did. Social mobility, something my parents could not have afforded on their own. - Paid my dad when he lost his job - Paid my brother who never managed to land a job

And of course if it wasn't for taxes / a functioning government, half my country would be underwater.

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