Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#51

Post by phkahler » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:36 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #47

torranceyang wrote: post #12

I really enjoyed this article. I haven't read Anthony Jack's book on the issue yet (I'll add it to my list!), but the framing of privileged poor and double disadvantaged was a new way for me to think about education inequality. The transition into an "elite" college, even as a middle class Asian-American male, was incredibly difficult on me mentally. My background in public school system in North Carolina (not in the…

I felt similarly wrt office hours. I never understood what I was supposed to do with office hours, and felt like an idiot when I tried used them. My slightly younger cousins went to fancy private schools growing up, and were sort of trained how to work the system. They are still in communication with multiple professors 20 years later.

>> trained how to work the system

Seeking help or advice is not "working the system", it's normal. I was not programmed with this understanding either, and it can take time to adjust once you see it. Life gets easier when you stop thinking you need to face it alone.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#52

Post by droithomme » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:49 AM UTC

whymauri wrote: post #45

droithomme wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor kids at elite prep schools is what do you think 2% of their enrollment? So 2% is not small, fair enough. And private preparatory schools (much less elite prep schools) educate far less than 1% of the student population in the US. But let's go crazy over the top just to avoid nitpicking and claim it's as much as 1%. 1% * 2% = .02% Explain again why they need special consideration and are statistically legitimate…

Tony Jack makes this pretty clear. Schools are patting themselves on the back for increasing low income and minority enrollment without considering the fact that a large portion of these students is the "privileged poor". As a result, entire school-wide policies are being misguided and failing poor students who did not have an elite-level secondary education. Back-of-the-envelope math (which I don't believe is correc…

> a large portion of these students is the "privileged poor"

Yes I know that is my whole point. A large portion? What does that mean? The number of destitute minority kids going to top elite preparatory schools is an incredibly tiny number, vastly less than a tenth of a percent of students overall, and completely statistically insignificant. Very very few students in the US go to elite prep schools and only a tiny number of those are poor or minority. Claiming that's "a large portion" doesn't seem to be supported by data and is just a gross exaggeration focusing on irrelevant fictions and thus is very unhelpful, counterproductive and disingenuous. Such fictions harm people.

On a tangental topic, I do agree that destitute minority kids going to top elite preparatory schools gives them an advantage and that the quality of education at such schools is vastly superior to that of public schools in general. Why is this so given that private school teachers on average are paid less than public school teachers. How is it that public school teachers consistently fail to achieve good results, particularly with disadvantaged and minority students who are massively disadvantaged by public schools but achieve parity with rich white advantaged students both in elite private school and homeschool settings, including homeschool settings with low spending and unqualified parent teachers.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#53

Post by solveit » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:53 AM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #40

whymauri wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are a small group in the overall population but not at elite schools.

Poor kids at elite prep schools is what do you think 2% of their enrollment? So 2% is not small, fair enough. And private preparatory schools (much less elite prep schools) educate far less than 1% of the student population in the US. But let's go crazy over the top just to avoid nitpicking and claim it's as much as 1%. 1% * 2% = .02% Explain again why they need special consideration and are statistically legitimate…

I don't know about special consideration, but statistically legitimate depends on absolute numbers and not relative. 0.02% of American students would certainly be enough to conduct a statistical analysis on.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#54

Post by kolbe » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:02 AM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #48

kolbe wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of lazy things: your justification has entirely consisted of "history has shown" without even giving anecdotes, let alone data to support it. I will do some actual work and delve into said history. (1) Taxing the rich and corporations excessively -> offshoring income and sheltering assets. (2) Prohibition -> mass gang violence, marginal reduction in alcohol consumption and a repeal of it. (3) Recreational dr…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man If the children of the wealthy were forced to remain in the public school system, then their parents would be forced to have a stake in it, and would therefore be forced to participate in its improvement - as voters, as donors, as volunteers - instead of jumping ship and leaving it to the people who don't have any choice. That would help intellect to be added to all children,…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_argument_whatsoever

How about a false equivalency? You're right that if people are forced to do things like you claim, some of the consequences would come about. But making a law is not the same thing as force.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#55

Post by amalcon » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:03 AM UTC

Glyptodon wrote: post #14

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

I remember one friend back in college who constantly asked for -- and received -- deadline extensions on assignments. Usually, there was not what I would consider a good reason for this (illness, family emergency, etc) but rather something under that student's control (social obligations, just not being happy with the work so far, things like that). For a while, I felt like that student had a superpower: if I asked for any kind of special treatment for such a reason, I would surely just be lectured about personal responsibility. Our other friends were split on this question: either agreeing with me entirely, or not even understanding why one might think that.

Until one day, when a professor invited me to his office. It turned out, he wanted to discuss an uncharacteristically poor grade on a particular exam. I was honest, that I simply wasn't feeling myself that day, and I'd been up late for a social engagement the night before. I expected it to just end there. He offered to let me take the exam again, right then in an unoccupied room, and advised me that next time I should just say something.

In some ways, that was the most valuable thing I learned in college: that authority figures are just people, and while some are jerks, some legitimately just want to be helpful.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#56

Post by droithomme » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:05 AM UTC

ElFitz wrote: post #41

torranceyang wrote: post #12

I really enjoyed this article. I haven't read Anthony Jack's book on the issue yet (I'll add it to my list!), but the framing of privileged poor and double disadvantaged was a new way for me to think about education inequality. The transition into an "elite" college, even as a middle class Asian-American male, was incredibly difficult on me mentally. My background in public school system in North Carolina (not in the…

I wonder how much of this is culturally specific. I went in the same middle and high schools as my classmates (none American nor in the US), yet our behaviors towards teachers couldn't have been more different.

Public schools in the US and most religious upbringings (not all) teach blind submission and deference to authority. Students who question things too much are deemed troublemakers obstructing the teacher's valuable dictation time. Repeated offenders are referred to a psychiatrist for a ADHD referral and subsequent drugging and parents who object get a DCS referral and their kids rehomed in foster care where they are often then subjected to physical and sexual abuse.

It's not surprising that such disadvantaged (public school) students would so be in awe of what they perceive as the unquestionable authority of professors that they would not ask questions as that is what our public school systems (most not all) train students to do - remain silent and memorize the words of wisdom being imparted to you. There will be a test.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#57

Post by ACow_Adonis » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

friendlybus wrote: post #28

Glyptodon wrote: post #14

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

>The whole concept of "discussing your grade" is another overlap. People from a certain strata do this constantly and it's a perfect example of something bluring (a) and (b). I've seen this happen with working class people in high universities. It's not a class issue, you can learn it from others.

Except it is a class issue: just like you CAN learn dining etiquette from others, unless you have been presented with the idea that dining etiquette is something that you should/need to learn, there is no obvious way to pick up it's even a thing that you should be focusing on, because everything in the culture places euphamisms and misdirection between the phenomenon and what's really going on, and you've never even been to a formal dinner party (might not even know what one is).

I am in no way lower class, but I was brought up with a distinctly meritorious mindset (and one that I'm generally thankful for on the whole). But it places one at a huge disadvantage in our education system.

Office hours were for people who didn't understand the assignment or the material. To go otherwise would be borderline offensive and waste important people's time. What else could they possibly be for?

Similarly, what is there to discuss about a grade? It makes as much sense as 'I'm going to talk to my lecturer about the number 7'.

The idea of running drafts or queries about assignments past a lecturer or tutor beforehand still strikes me emotionally as, well, cheating. It's not fair, people wouldn't give individual students unique insights into the assessment. How absurd! They'd have the integrity to resign from such a clearly corrupt system before something like that took hold! No one would stand for it!

Kissing arse? Getting your face known? But assessment is objective so it would be pointless at best, unethical towards both self and society at worst...

Of course now, older and wiser, I know better. But at the time, every message most children receive is to explicitly hide how the social system actually works and reinforce the divisions that are actually there and pretend that systems are objective measurements of ranking ability.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#58

Post by wdutch » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #51

Spooky23 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt similarly wrt office hours. I never understood what I was supposed to do with office hours, and felt like an idiot when I tried used them. My slightly younger cousins went to fancy private schools growing up, and were sort of trained how to work the system. They are still in communication with multiple professors 20 years later.

>> trained how to work the system Seeking help or advice is not "working the system", it's normal. I was not programmed with this understanding either, and it can take time to adjust once you see it. Life gets easier when you stop thinking you need to face it alone.

It's funny how "working the system" has connotations of foul play but if you're talking about software or a machine and you say "I don't know how to work it" you're saying that you don't know how to make it do it's expected function (at least in my dialect of English).

It's great that you overcame your initial difficulty. Personally, as a state-schooled white male I never did get comfortable using office hours while I was at university like other people in the comments have mentioned.

Some of the students mentioned in the article have it far worse than I did because they don't even know the meaning of the term "office hours". They can't use the system as it's expected to be used because they don't even know there's a system. Perhaps they don't even think to look for a system because they're accustomed to systems being stacked against them and they have no conception of a system that's there to help them.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#59

Post by tenpies » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:29 AM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #56

ElFitz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of this is culturally specific. I went in the same middle and high schools as my classmates (none American nor in the US), yet our behaviors towards teachers couldn't have been more different.

Public schools in the US and most religious upbringings (not all) teach blind submission and deference to authority. Students who question things too much are deemed troublemakers obstructing the teacher's valuable dictation time. Repeated offenders are referred to a psychiatrist for a ADHD referral and subsequent drugging and parents who object get a DCS referral and their kids rehomed in foster care where they are…

> Public schools in the US and most religious upbringings

I would say the school system in general does that. The whole point of the school system is to turn you into a predictable automaton of economic utility. You want to be creative? Do that in your own time or pray you can control your creativity enough to only release it during the designated classes.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#60

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:34 AM UTC

tenpies wrote: post #59

droithomme wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public schools in the US and most religious upbringings (not all) teach blind submission and deference to authority. Students who question things too much are deemed troublemakers obstructing the teacher's valuable dictation time. Repeated offenders are referred to a psychiatrist for a ADHD referral and subsequent drugging and parents who object get a DCS referral and their kids rehomed in foster care where they are…

> Public schools in the US and most religious upbringings I would say the school system in general does that. The whole point of the school system is to turn you into a predictable automaton of economic utility. You want to be creative? Do that in your own time or pray you can control your creativity enough to only release it during the designated classes.

[deleted]