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What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

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Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#51
post #13

I have a straightforward definition of "understand". To understand means to be able to give a (representative) example of the (intensionally) given set. Though it is harder than it seems, as it usually means solving the constraint satisfaction problem. For example, take the classical AI knowledgebase fragment, "bird is animal that flies". If I ask example of bird, it can say "eagle", and exhibit some understanding. W…

Then animals do not understand. You've rigged this up to operationalize it for current digital machines. "Understanding", "Intelligence", etc. is a feature of animals in their environment. We need to begin there; and that is what we are talking about. We "understand" how to drive as a dog "understands" how to play fetch. Understanding is not ever going to be a trivial rule that some digital system may instantiate. It…

> Then animals do not understand.

I am agnostic regarding that, as I don't think there is any evidence that they do not attempt to build models that are consistent representations of reality.

I am assuming, based on my own experience, they also have this "internal lightbulb" going on when they think they have built the correct model. But whether they are actually cognizant of it (self-aware), I have no idea. (I guess what I am saying is that understanding and self-awareness are two different things.)

Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#52
OK, wow, the old guard sure knows how to write sensibly. This is a great article.

But I have to disagree with this (because of course I do):

>> For example, when I tell Siri “Call Carol” and it dials the correct number, you will have a hard time convincing me that Siri did not understand my request.

That is a very common-sense and down-to-earth non-definition of intelligence: how can an entity that is answering a question correctly not "understand" the question?

I am going to quote Richard Feynman who encountered an example of this "how":

After a lot of investigation, I finally figured out that the students had memorized everything, but they didn’t know what anything meant. When they heard “light that is reflected from a medium with an index,” they didn’t know that it meant a material such as water. They didn’t know that the “direction of the light” is the direction in which you see something when you’re looking at it, and so on. Everything was entirely memorized, yet nothing had been translated into meaningful words. So if I asked, “What is Brewster’s Angle?” I’m going into the computer with the right keywords. But if I say, “Look at the water,” nothing happens – they don’t have anything under “Look at the water”!

https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

In this (in?) famous passage Feynman is arguing that students of physics that he met in Brazil didn't know physics, even though they had memorised physics textbooks.

Feynman doesn't talk about "understanding". Rather he talks about "knowing" a subject. But his is also a very straight-forward definition of knowing: you can tell whether someone knows a subject if you ask them many questions from different angles and find that they can only answer the questions asked from one single angle.

So if I follow up "Siri, call Carol" with "Siri, what is a call" and Siri answers by calling Carol, I know that Siri doesn't know what a call is, probably doesn't know what a Carol is, or what a call-Carol is, and so that Siri doesn't have any understanding from a very common-sense point of view.

Not sure if this goes beyond the Chinese room argument though. Perhaps I'm just on a diffferent side of it than Thomas Dietterich.

Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#53
post #13

I have a straightforward definition of "understand". To understand means to be able to give a (representative) example of the (intensionally) given set. Though it is harder than it seems, as it usually means solving the constraint satisfaction problem. For example, take the classical AI knowledgebase fragment, "bird is animal that flies". If I ask example of bird, it can say "eagle", and exhibit some understanding. W…

Very good observation, although I'd say this is still just understanding at the micro-level. A lot of what is going on in communication between people depends just as much on what hasn't been said, what would normally be said in this situation, having an idea of what the situation is in the first place, what was said recently or the last time you interacted with this person (which could potentially be a very long time ago), etc. I do believe that a lot or all of this can be posed as CSPs though.

On my reading list is "The proper treatment of events", a book which "studies the semantics of tense and aspect" within a formal framework of constraint logic programming[1]. There is other similar work in this area, like "Good-enough parsing, Whenever possible interpretation:a constraint-based model of sentence comprehension"[2].

[1] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.10.... [2] https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01907632/file/CSLP-Blac...

Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what does it mean for humans to "understand"? Don't humans understand things by altering the state and connections of neurons in the brain? You could make the argument that the brain is also an "incredibly sophisticated loop". My point is that humans are also highly-sophisticated, biological machines, so if you say machines cannot "understand", you are making the same claim for humans as well.

Humans also squirt fluids around in their brains. Brains as machines is one of many ways to think about humans. Humans can conceive of and move past thoughts or concepts that would cause a machine to crash. I think more ideas describe human brains than being simply machines, though that idea is useful in places. Making the claim about what a human is in the absolute, is more about what you fill the unknown with than…

Are you equating machine here with "sequentially programmed computer?". Because computers and neural networks specifically have gone far beyond that.

Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#55
post #22

This is a good balanced article that gets a lot of things right. We should take a forgiving approach when we talk about AI systems. And as the author points out the problem is not that AI systems dont have understanding yet. The problem is with the hype which leads many to believe that we are close to building systems which can understand us. That said, I have a small problem with the examples presented to say that a…

I think this is partly down to us humans defining "intelligence" as "like us".

We have a very specific set of evolved traits that define our understanding of the universe. A lot of that is social. So our "understanding" of the phrase "call Carol" includes a wide range of social cues about what that means, and your example is perfect: "call Carol" means that I want to talk to her, and that would be better done in person if possible, but that "if possible" has a more-or-less specific range of "if she's within earshot so I can yell for her", which is limited to the range of a human voice (but not the maximum range, like screaming, but just a normal yelling range). Which is less if the door is closed, or there's music playing, or Kevin is trying to nap in the other room. And not at all if we're in a library, or concert, or even a public space where yelling would draw attention. If "call Carol" has to include all of these to qualify for "understanding" then I think I know some people who fail at this test.

My go-to thought experiment on this is Dolphins. Dolphins are intelligent, have language, etc. But their understanding of the world must be so different. Trying to explain to a dolphin what "tripping someone up" means is going to be tricky. They may understand the words, but they'll never understand the concept.

We swim in a sea of social cues and non-verbal communication. We can program an AI to imitate more and more of this, and be aware of more of it, but it's like teaching dolphins about long-distance running. It's never going to come naturally. And they're never going to evolve that understanding naturally (like we do as children) because it's not in their nature. We anthropomophise our machines a lot, and we assume that they'll grow (like children) to grok all of our social cues eventually, because our only experience of similar situations is, well, children. But they're just machines, designed for a single purpose. They're never going to grok this. They're never going to be "like us" and really understand all the social ramifications of "call Carol". At some point I think we're going to have to accept this, and say that the machine understands the phrase "call Carol" enough. TFA draws the line at the machine calling Carol, and that seems reasonable.

Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#56
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can say that you don't have qualia and you can't prove me wrong. Does that seem dangerous to anyone else? I also don't see any distinction between "qualia" and "soul" other than spelling, but perhaps it's because I don't have one. Finally, I have this question for Searle: Say you understand English. Does any specific neuron in your brain understand English? No, the larger system of neurons+neuronal connections does…

Do you have color, sound, taste experiences? Do you experience pain? Do you dream or imagine? Then you have quaila. If you don’t like the philosophical connotations of that term, then call it subjective experience.

> Do you have color, sound, taste experiences? Do you experience pain? Do you dream or imagine?

I can say I do, but what reason do you have to believe me?

Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#57
> Speaking as a psychologist, I’m flabbergasted by claims that the decisions of algorithms are opaque while the decisions of people are transparent. I’ve spent half my life at it and I still have limited success understanding human decisions. - Jean-François Bonnefon’s tweet (as quoted in https://p.migdal.pl/2019/07/15/human-machine-learning-motiva...)

Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#58
post #13

I have a straightforward definition of "understand". To understand means to be able to give a (representative) example of the (intensionally) given set. Though it is harder than it seems, as it usually means solving the constraint satisfaction problem. For example, take the classical AI knowledgebase fragment, "bird is animal that flies". If I ask example of bird, it can say "eagle", and exhibit some understanding. W…

Is "profound" the right word here?

> The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth. - Niels Bohr

And, in fact, it is my rule of thumb test if something is a profound truth.

Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#59
post #22

This is a good balanced article that gets a lot of things right. We should take a forgiving approach when we talk about AI systems. And as the author points out the problem is not that AI systems dont have understanding yet. The problem is with the hype which leads many to believe that we are close to building systems which can understand us. That said, I have a small problem with the examples presented to say that a…

> Siri was waiting for a command and executed the best command that matched. Which is, make a phone call.

ISTM there's no more "understanding" involved in this than when I touch the Contacts icon on my screen, then "C", "A", "R", etc until Carol's entry is displayed, and then I touch the Phone icon to initiate a call.

The fact that the interface used was sound-waves that the device recognised as matching the keyword "call" and the contact-list entry "Carol", rather than my finger touching specific areas of the screen, may be a handy feature. Of course it's a triumph of signal processing, fuzzy recognition, etc. But there's no more "understanding" involved than in the touch-screen version of the action, or in typing a command and parameter into a terminal window.

Re: What does it mean for a machine to “understand”?

#60
post #22

This is a good balanced article that gets a lot of things right. We should take a forgiving approach when we talk about AI systems. And as the author points out the problem is not that AI systems dont have understanding yet. The problem is with the hype which leads many to believe that we are close to building systems which can understand us. That said, I have a small problem with the examples presented to say that a…

The problem is with the hype which leads many to believe that we are close to building systems which can understand us.

The problem with the hype is that we are nowhere close to building systems that understand anything.

All we've built are calculators on steroids so far.

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