Live data from Hacker News

Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

npr.org

51–60 of 74 posts

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#51

Kind of amusing that Gandhi was attacked from the establishment, imperialist side by Churchill, and is now under attack from the opposite side. Poor Gandhi can't win.

somehow i feel it's the same side. The "establishment" uses whatever is the trendy means. He is a human, not a saint. It's good that people point out stupid things he believed in/did/said - it only humanizes Gandhi.

Can we not be allowed to have heroes without someone mentioning that they go to the toilet the same as us?

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#52
As with many historical figures, I feel we need to separate the person from their legacy & achievements more. Yes Gandhi was a dick, but the fight for a free India and the end of the caste system seems a good cause to me.

That doesn't mean it was 'all worth it' or 'ok, beacuse...'; it means the person and the effects they had on the world are not the same thing. A terrible person can do good & a good person can commit heinous acts.

The other way around the ridiculousness is more obvious: The nazis fixed the German economy and saved the country from collapse; so the whole genocide and war thing are no longer relevant?

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#53
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the things he is applauded for he should be applauded for and remembered. His life holds valuable lessons for everyone. For those things that are not applaud worthy, taking those aspects into focus only serves to dismiss the good parts. No one is perfect in all aspects.

> His life holds valuable lessons for everyone. Completely agree with this. All of his life holds valuable lessons for everyone. The good and the bad. I don't think it's healthy to treat someone's bad sides as forbidden topics that should not be discussed because the good sides need to be preserved.

>I don't think it's healthy to treat someone's bad sides as forbidden topics that should not be discussed because the good sides need to be preserved.

Except this doesn't happen in isolation. Every has their own agenda and bias. For example with Gandhi, his fiercest critics are among the Right Wing Hindu Supremacists, who see Gandhi as a traitor to his people. They blame Gandhi for allowing the Partition to happen, and agitating to give Pakistan a fair share of resources. They blame him for the death of Bhagat Singh and the other militant nationalists. The criticisms go on.

In India, you will rarely find the sort of fair discussion about historic personalities. People strongly identify with these heroes, and to cast any aspersions is tantamount to insulting their cultural identity. Try and have a balanced discussion about Ambedkar, and you'll find yourself in jail for a hatecrime.

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#54
post #39
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their failings don't remove their achievements. In the case of Gandhi it's not just the current criteria. Even during his time people saw him as a shitty person. It's good that we stop worshiping great men. Rabindranath Tagore saw him as a nihilist with fierce joy of annihilation. Many Dalits (untouchables) saw Gandhi as the enemy. While he worked alongside them in some aspects, he was patronizing towards them. Ambed…

citation needed

Well you could read up on Ambdekar, or on Gandhi's hunger strike against untouchable representation. Or his documented letters promoting segregation, also between Indians and Africans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._R._Ambedkar

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#56
post #28
post #3

This recent trend of taking down past figures because they do not meet current criteria for acceptable behavior in society is disturbing. It's like people are trying to erase lessons from the past.

Their failings don't remove their achievements. In the case of Gandhi it's not just the current criteria. Even during his time people saw him as a shitty person. It's good that we stop worshiping great men. Rabindranath Tagore saw him as a nihilist with fierce joy of annihilation. Many Dalits (untouchables) saw Gandhi as the enemy. While he worked alongside them in some aspects, he was patronizing towards them. Ambed…

>He was against giving his wife penicillin to safe her life for religious reasons and she died.

This is one of those debunked smears that instantly disqualifies whatever else the speaker says. We're talking Elders-of-Zion level smear.

(This is where somebody will post as a source the Commentary article from 1983, where the author hears this from somebody at a cocktail party who heard it from someone else.)

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#57
post #3

This recent trend of taking down past figures because they do not meet current criteria for acceptable behavior in society is disturbing. It's like people are trying to erase lessons from the past.

I've been rewatching The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air recently, and from some of the protagonist's behaviour and script, I'm surprised Will Smith hasn't yet drawn the ire of the perpetually offended. Of course, we know that moral standards aren't applied equally…

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#58
post #43
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they literally took down a statue of Gandhi. I wonder if we just won't be able to have statues any more? Or, we can only have statues of people whose lives are largely inscrutable or unknown to the public.

I'd rather live in a world with meaningful public discussion of controversial topics than a world with statues, if that's really the choice we face.

You don't think those statues catalyse the discussion?

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#59
post #3

This recent trend of taking down past figures because they do not meet current criteria for acceptable behavior in society is disturbing. It's like people are trying to erase lessons from the past.

We laude past figures with our current criteria for acceptable behavior. Why not criticize?

I would argue both lauding and condemning are problematic practices in most cases.

My history professor in college used to cite the old adage that 'the past is a different country', meaning that one shouldn't pass judgment on the practices of the past just as one wouldn't pass judgment on foreign customs. From a practical standpoint, withholding value judgment is part of intellectual diligence - it allows us to draw interpretations of history and people that don't play on our inner biases. That attitude has tangible benefits for ordinary people in a pluralistic democracy as much as it has for academics - it forces us to dissect the sources of opinions we don't necessarily respect as well as the ones we cherish most, and that dissection is key to understanding (and hopefully solving) the root causes of social problems. Having no one above reproach or below respect - or more simply, having no heroes and no villains - makes us a more mature society.

From a more theoretical standpoint, Edward Carr wrote a famous essay in 1961 (http://abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/eng/carr.pdf) that demonstrates that the most significant work of historians is, like modern scientists, model-building: historians generate narratives about the past, linking this causative factor to this specific result, just as modern scientists construct hypotheses by turning correlated phenomena and causative mechanism. Unlike the physical sciences, however, history, does not have the benefit of falsificiationism or Bayesian confidence - because you can't repeat or vary the same historical incident in controlled conditions, you can never "prove" a narrative incorrect or increase your trust in a historical narrative's prediction the more times it agrees with the facts. Consequently, any historical conclusion we make is always an interpretation of, and not a reliable insight into, how humans and societies behave.

The somewhat upsetting conclusion from this walk down the foundations of historiography is that you can never have historically-vindicated criteria for acceptable or unacceptable behaviour - any criteria we adopt now can't point to a historical narrative for validity, and must seek more robust epistemological foundations (controlled experiments, metastudies, etc.). Until you have such criteria, both lauding and criticizing would, at least to me, rest on unjustifiable beliefs.

(Examples of behaviour criteria that relies on historical narrative for validity and thus shouldn't be applied as value judgments per the chain above: "Treat group X as evil, because group X did so-and-so in the past and we're better than that." or, equivalently, "Advocating for democracy is good behaviour because it directly led to improvements in quality of living in all the Western countries that had it.". These are not my beliefs, mind - just examples of beliefs that rest on historical foundations.)

tl;dr value judgments can't use history as a valid justification because of how history is actually practiced, so applying judgments that do use such justification is iffy. Also, trying to avoid value judgments makes us better at understanding how systems interact, which (hopefully) makes us better at solving social problems.

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#60
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their failings don't remove their achievements. In the case of Gandhi it's not just the current criteria. Even during his time people saw him as a shitty person. It's good that we stop worshiping great men. Rabindranath Tagore saw him as a nihilist with fierce joy of annihilation. Many Dalits (untouchables) saw Gandhi as the enemy. While he worked alongside them in some aspects, he was patronizing towards them. Ambed…

This is one of the TILs that I could gladly have skipped. I mean, sometimes you'd rather have a wrong, but more peaceful picture of the world, than live with the impression that literally everyone out has a very dark side to them...

Luckily, none of it is true. Or at least a gross exaggeration. As one example, yes, many untouchables didn't support him (there were 300 million people living in India then), but many more did.
Post reply on HN