No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy • Hacker News Board

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#51

Post by cjslep » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

zarro wrote: post #43

Notice the keen implication in the title that testosterone causes reduction in cognitive empathy - making the reader now brainstorm ways to prove the hypothesis instead of considering if its the correct question to be asking in the first place. To illustrate my point, consider if this was the title: There is no evidence that being female reduces cognitive function.

> Notice the keen implication in the title that testosterone causes reduction in cognitive empathy

Well, yeah. Kind of a "duh" from the article which quotes the scientist:

"Several earlier studies have suggested a connection between testosterone and reduced cognitive empathy..."

So no implication needed, creating supporting evidence for that hypothesis was actually already being done, and this one counters that existing narrative.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#52

Post by tlb » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

zarro wrote: post #43

Notice the keen implication in the title that testosterone causes reduction in cognitive empathy - making the reader now brainstorm ways to prove the hypothesis instead of considering if its the correct question to be asking in the first place. To illustrate my point, consider if this was the title: There is no evidence that being female reduces cognitive function.

The paper's abstract mentions that, "previous studies reported that testosterone administration impaired cognitive empathy in healthy humans."

When you're trying to replicate previous studies but get a null result, it's reasonable to put that right in the title.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#53

Post by laughinghan » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

ve55 wrote: post #9

>In the largest study of its kind, results challenge the notion of autism as reflecting an “extreme male brain.” I don't see how this is related, unless you think the only 'maleness' that can exist in a brain is testosterone levels. There are so many things that could be tested and analyzed here besides testosterone levels.

Of course it's not the only 'maleness' that could be tested and analyzed, but the article say it is the one most strongly linked to autism.

> Prior to this work, the strongest evidence for a link between testosterone exposure and reduced cognitive empathy came in 2011 in a study that [...] supported the idea that prenatal testosterone exposure created a more masculinized brain that less readily inferred the emotional state of others. The study was used as support for the “extreme male brain” hypothesis of autism, which contends that autism is an exaggeration of “male” tendencies toward a cognitive style characterized by systemizing over empathizing.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#54

Post by sverona » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

TheOperator wrote: post #29

_hngt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans woman here. Cisgender men and women have different brain structures, and transgender people's brain structures tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as[1]. So, for example, a trans woman like myself who was born male will have a brain structure that resembles that of a cis woman, not a man. > I know a trans man who, after a few months of testosterone, claimed it was "night and day" in how they…

>Tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as I hear this claim a lot but I've never actually understood what "resembles" actually means. The brain structures that transgender people have don't match typical male or female brains but how do you determine which brain transgender brains resemble the most? What is the criteria? To me to determine which brain trans brains were more similar to you would have…

Trans woman here. I agree that the neuroscience feels kind of flimsy. I would further argue that neuroscience shouldn't be used as an argument in favor of "accept trans women as being women" because, among other things, it can just as quickly be turned around by people who seek to pull the You're Not Really Trans Unless A Doctor Says So card on other trans folks.

We're women because we say we are - and that's really all there is to say about it.

We are disproportionately into things like coding because, growing up, the vast majority of us are socialized the same way as boys would be. Amazingly, it turns out that in a vacuum, the activity of programming a computer isn't actually gendered.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#55

Post by sysbin » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

_hngt wrote: post #19

daenz wrote: post #4

>Prior to this work, the strongest evidence for a link between testosterone exposure and reduced cognitive empathy came in 2011 in a study that found administering testosterone to healthy women reduced their performance on a test of reading emotions. The results suggested the testosterone impaired their performance. That's interesting. Adult males typically have 7-8 times the levels that females do, and females are m…

Trans woman here. Cisgender men and women have different brain structures, and transgender people's brain structures tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as[1]. So, for example, a trans woman like myself who was born male will have a brain structure that resembles that of a cis woman, not a man. > I know a trans man who, after a few months of testosterone, claimed it was "night and day" in how they…

That study is worthless based on the small sample size. I'm also a trans woman and I hate when this study is brought up. I think brain development could be a reason but I also think how a person is raised could play into being transgender for some people. Our generation will likely never know for certain. I just don't think there is an all encompassing answer for everyone.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#56

Post by queercode » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

meiraleal wrote: post #47

devwastaken wrote: post #11

Isn't testosterone simply a byproduct of other hormonal processes? More of a measurement of effect than cause?

Is it? So why administering intramuscular testoterone has anabolic/androgen effects?

I don't think this is true.

Intramuscular testosterone is the most common method of HRT for trans men / trans masc folks.

The effects of which are not "androgen".

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#57

Post by belorn » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

TheOperator wrote: post #29

_hngt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans woman here. Cisgender men and women have different brain structures, and transgender people's brain structures tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as[1]. So, for example, a trans woman like myself who was born male will have a brain structure that resembles that of a cis woman, not a man. > I know a trans man who, after a few months of testosterone, claimed it was "night and day" in how they…

>Tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as I hear this claim a lot but I've never actually understood what "resembles" actually means. The brain structures that transgender people have don't match typical male or female brains but how do you determine which brain transgender brains resemble the most? What is the criteria? To me to determine which brain trans brains were more similar to you would have…

As I recall from the lecture by Robert Sapolsky, researcher can look at a preserved brain and determine with a fairly good accuracy if the brain came from a woman or a man. Experiments has then show that for transgender people the same is true for the gender the brains person identified as, including for people who has not undergone any hormone treatment.

I would have to rewatch those lectures to see if he gave any direct examples of markers, numbers, or sample size.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#58

Post by stanfordkid » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

TheOperator wrote: post #29

_hngt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans woman here. Cisgender men and women have different brain structures, and transgender people's brain structures tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as[1]. So, for example, a trans woman like myself who was born male will have a brain structure that resembles that of a cis woman, not a man. > I know a trans man who, after a few months of testosterone, claimed it was "night and day" in how they…

>Tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as I hear this claim a lot but I've never actually understood what "resembles" actually means. The brain structures that transgender people have don't match typical male or female brains but how do you determine which brain transgender brains resemble the most? What is the criteria? To me to determine which brain trans brains were more similar to you would have…

Brains are messy things and the argument of the article linked is reductionist (as are most papers which make hand-wavy assertions that one brain is "similar" to another). MRI studies with small sample sizes such as the one linked are almost always underpowered [1]

All the study conclusively proves is that both trans women and regular women don't react as viscerally to porn as much as the average man. The actual connectivity and structure that yields similarity in activation between trans and cis women may be completely different.

[1] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#59

Post by civilian » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

TheOperator wrote: post #29

_hngt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans woman here. Cisgender men and women have different brain structures, and transgender people's brain structures tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as[1]. So, for example, a trans woman like myself who was born male will have a brain structure that resembles that of a cis woman, not a man. > I know a trans man who, after a few months of testosterone, claimed it was "night and day" in how they…

>Tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as I hear this claim a lot but I've never actually understood what "resembles" actually means. The brain structures that transgender people have don't match typical male or female brains but how do you determine which brain transgender brains resemble the most? What is the criteria? To me to determine which brain trans brains were more similar to you would have…

No one has included a link to the study yet! https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brai...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.h...

Related to this is the idea of dual-gender human chimers.

(Research article) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/216874877_Dual-gend...

(Layperson-friendly blog post by the same author) https://medium.com/@brianhanley/many-transgender-and-gay-peo...

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#60

Post by sizzle » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

sysbin wrote: post #55

_hngt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans woman here. Cisgender men and women have different brain structures, and transgender people's brain structures tend to resemble that of the gender that they identify as[1]. So, for example, a trans woman like myself who was born male will have a brain structure that resembles that of a cis woman, not a man. > I know a trans man who, after a few months of testosterone, claimed it was "night and day" in how they…

That study is worthless based on the small sample size. I'm also a trans woman and I hate when this study is brought up. I think brain development could be a reason but I also think how a person is raised could play into being transgender for some people. Our generation will likely never know for certain. I just don't think there is an all encompassing answer for everyone.

Very balanced response, thank you.