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Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

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Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#51

Post by Hitton »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #38
Hitton wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is if you should defend the rights of the past offenders or current potential victim. Sure, there might be repercussions for past conduct, but at the end just one person is responsible for it. On the other hand you have potential victims who can't protect themselves by doing background check on potential perpetrator. If you prevent the victim from taking reasonable precautions, aren't you at least a litt…

Honestly I'm not sure. If you don't allow someone the opportunity to reform aren't you strong arming then into continuing their criminal behaviour?

I'm not denying ability to reform to anyone, they just will have to forthcoming about their past and persuade the other party that they have changed and to give them a chance. Definitely better than for instance giving child molester chance to molest another child, defrauder to defraud another victim and so on.

Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#52

Post by danShumway »

umvi wrote: post #29
kd3 wrote: post #23

What about my right to remember?? What right does anyone else have to demand that you forget something? Do they have more say about your body than you yourself? If so, you are a slave. When tech merges with brains will they demand intrusion to delete what they don't want you to remember?

> When tech merges with brains will they demand intrusion to delete what they don't want you to remember? Yes, but only if it is possible to index/search/dump the contents of people's brains. In that case we are walking video cameras violating people's privacy everywhere we go, and it is only logical that we should mandate people get their brains wiped of privacy infringing information. How would you like it if peopl…

> and illegal theft of your data

People are free to hide information or to take steps to obscure it, but I do not believe that anyone can own a fact.

Even if we were broadly in agreement that Right to Be Forgotten was a good idea, you still would not be able to own a fact. We sometimes create exceptions to people's right to share data and grant individuals/companies temporary monopolies over certain kinds of information -- the best example of this is IP law.

However, even someone who owns a copyright can't morally claim that they literally own the information. The state has given them a temporary monopoly in the interest of promoting public good, but there is no intrinsic moral right to IP that they can claim they have. Laws of this nature are a restriction of rights that we tolerate because of potential social benefits.

The system you are proposing goes far beyond the current Right to Be Forgotten.

> How would you like it if people sold information about you based on what they saw and heard you do in public?

People can already do that. They can go post on blogs or Twitter that they saw you do something. We already have a mechanism for indexing, searching, and dumping the contents of brains: fingers and a computer keyboard.

Right to Be Forgotten is controversial, but what you propose is much stricter. If Right to Be Forgotten tried to essentially make knowledge forbidden -- to make it illegal to write down your memories or post them online -- it wouldn't just be controversial; practically no one would support it.

Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#53

Post by icelancer »

umvi wrote: post #29
kd3 wrote: post #23

What about my right to remember?? What right does anyone else have to demand that you forget something? Do they have more say about your body than you yourself? If so, you are a slave. When tech merges with brains will they demand intrusion to delete what they don't want you to remember?

> When tech merges with brains will they demand intrusion to delete what they don't want you to remember? Yes, but only if it is possible to index/search/dump the contents of people's brains. In that case we are walking video cameras violating people's privacy everywhere we go, and it is only logical that we should mandate people get their brains wiped of privacy infringing information. How would you like it if peopl…

>> How would you like it if people sold information about you based on what they saw and heard you do in public? That is a gross violation of your privacy and illegal theft of your data. Wouldn't you want that person's brain to be wiped of information they have on you to protect your rights?

It definitely is not a violation of your privacy and it is not illegal theft of data either.

Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#54

Post by nordsieck »

umvi wrote: post #49
nordsieck wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would you like it if people sold information about you based on what they saw and heard you do in public? You mean like PIs? > That is a gross violation of your privacy and illegal theft of your data. Most people don't like it, but it's certainly not illegal.

> You mean like PIs? Yes, but they have a government-approved license to do so, normal citizens do not. Random civilians aren't allowed to just PI people. In terms of privacy rights, it would be for the best if people had mandatory implants inserted at birth that automatically prevented brains from recording things about other people in public that haven't consented to your recording. I'm thinking something like Whit…

> Yes, but they have a government-approved license to do so, normal citizens do not.

I mean, so do hair dressers. That doesn't stop people from cutting their friend's hair. You just can't charge for it.

> Random civilians aren't allowed to just PI people.

In the US, it is legal to video record anyone where they don't have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" (audio recording laws vary much more by State). At a minimum this includes everywhere most people would consider "in public".

> it would be for the best if people had mandatory implants inserted at birth that automatically prevented brains from recording things about other people in public that haven't consented to your recording.

There is really nothing I can add to your statement.

I currently believe very few people would agree with you, but I could be incorrect in that belief.

Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#55

Post by s_dev »

bilbo0s wrote: post #43
s_dev wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still remember -- you're just restricted from publishing or storing insecurely. Privacy effectively means the right to be left alone.

Unless you store it on servers in Asia or the US. That's kind of the ginormous loophole in the whole RTBF issue. If you can't compel anyone in the US or Asia to remove anything, then you're pretty much a$$ out.

I don't see such limitations as a bad thing. EU has made it clear -- you don't want to be on board -- fine, it's unenforceable. Just don't expect to be able to make a commerical presense in the largest trading bloc in the world.

This is acceptable/ignorable to little business across the world while giant corporations like Facebook or Google can't ignore it.

Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#56

Post by umvi »

icelancer wrote: post #53
umvi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When tech merges with brains will they demand intrusion to delete what they don't want you to remember? Yes, but only if it is possible to index/search/dump the contents of people's brains. In that case we are walking video cameras violating people's privacy everywhere we go, and it is only logical that we should mandate people get their brains wiped of privacy infringing information. How would you like it if peopl…

>> How would you like it if people sold information about you based on what they saw and heard you do in public? That is a gross violation of your privacy and illegal theft of your data. Wouldn't you want that person's brain to be wiped of information they have on you to protect your rights? It definitely is not a violation of your privacy and it is not illegal theft of data either.

Ok, so can I install facial recognition software in my store and have it observe your every move and sell what I observe to third parties? That's the same exact thing.

Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#57

Post by umvi »

nordsieck wrote: post #54
umvi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean like PIs? Yes, but they have a government-approved license to do so, normal citizens do not. Random civilians aren't allowed to just PI people. In terms of privacy rights, it would be for the best if people had mandatory implants inserted at birth that automatically prevented brains from recording things about other people in public that haven't consented to your recording. I'm thinking something like Whit…

> Yes, but they have a government-approved license to do so, normal citizens do not. I mean, so do hair dressers. That doesn't stop people from cutting their friend's hair. You just can't charge for it. > Random civilians aren't allowed to just PI people. In the US, it is legal to video record anyone where they don't have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" (audio recording laws vary much more by State). At a minim…

My point is that there is absolutely no difference between:

- cameras that observe your every move and sell off facial recognition and other data to third parties

- brain indexing/dumping tech that turns people into living cameras that are capable of doing the above.

Thus, if we decide that it is illegal to automatically collect information on people using computers, it shouldn't matter if the computer is electronic or biological in nature, it's a violation of the law either way. If companies aren't allowed to store PII about people without their consent, neither should indexable brains be able to store PII about people without their consent. It's quite simple.

Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#58

Post by danShumway »

umvi wrote: post #49
nordsieck wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would you like it if people sold information about you based on what they saw and heard you do in public? You mean like PIs? > That is a gross violation of your privacy and illegal theft of your data. Most people don't like it, but it's certainly not illegal.

> You mean like PIs? Yes, but they have a government-approved license to do so, normal citizens do not. Random civilians aren't allowed to just PI people. In terms of privacy rights, it would be for the best if people had mandatory implants inserted at birth that automatically prevented brains from recording things about other people in public that haven't consented to your recording. I'm thinking something like Whit…

But... isn't the entire point of White Christmas that this technology has horrifying social consequences?

Maybe I'm out of the loop, but do people really look at Black Mirror episodes and walk away thinking, "that might be a really good idea."?

Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#59

Post by nordsieck »

danShumway wrote: post #58
umvi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean like PIs? Yes, but they have a government-approved license to do so, normal citizens do not. Random civilians aren't allowed to just PI people. In terms of privacy rights, it would be for the best if people had mandatory implants inserted at birth that automatically prevented brains from recording things about other people in public that haven't consented to your recording. I'm thinking something like Whit…

But... isn't the entire point of White Christmas that this technology has horrifying social consequences? Maybe I'm out of the loop, but do people really look at Black Mirror episodes and walk away thinking, "that might be a really good idea."?

> do people really look at Black Mirror episodes and walk away thinking, "that might be a really good idea."?

Apparently at least one person did.

Re: Europeans have a 'right to be forgotten' online. Should Canadians?

#60

Post by umvi »

danShumway wrote: post #58
umvi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean like PIs? Yes, but they have a government-approved license to do so, normal citizens do not. Random civilians aren't allowed to just PI people. In terms of privacy rights, it would be for the best if people had mandatory implants inserted at birth that automatically prevented brains from recording things about other people in public that haven't consented to your recording. I'm thinking something like Whit…

But... isn't the entire point of White Christmas that this technology has horrifying social consequences? Maybe I'm out of the loop, but do people really look at Black Mirror episodes and walk away thinking, "that might be a really good idea."?

> But... isn't the entire point of White Christmas that this technology has horrifying social consequences?

Yes, and the point of my commentary is that privacy zealotry itself has horrifying social consequences when taken to its logical conclusions

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