Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#51

Post by baddox » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:58 AM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #16

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

Do you have the impression that the negative response toward Stallman's recent comments have anything to do with the general concept of "defending" anyone whatsoever? I certainly don't have that impression. I think people were upset over the specifics of his comments, not merely the fact that his comments might qualify as a "defense" of another person.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#52

Post by partialrecall » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:59 AM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #41

partialrecall wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really seems like his real 'sin' is not being neurotypical. Should he try to have more tact? Sure, of course. But failing that, the correct response is compassion and gentle correction, not a witchhunt. Not driving him out of his jobs.

I expect CSAIL is bristling with non-neurotypical people who didn't take this as a good time to come to the defense of Marvin Minksy in such a frankly bizarre way. It's one thing to say I don't think he did it , but to say "if he did it, it would not have been bad, and in this essay I will-" and to then distribute that to the entire CSAIL mailing list! I'll grant that some of the headlines about what RMS wrote were o…

I think Stallman is tactless, and I've thought that for years. That email didn't change anything I thought about him.

I also think that being tactless is not a moral crime. It's aesthetically offensive and counterproductive from a leadership perspective, but being a bad leader doesn't make somebody a bad person.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#53

Post by mattnumbers » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:00 AM UTC

For what it's worth, RMS' statements on the matter don't appear to concern what is "right", "wrong", or "acceptable" - they appear to concern only the available evidence.

Then again, I've only seen the two quotes appearing in the HN threads.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#54

Post by esotericn » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:02 AM UTC

75dvtwin wrote: post #43

> Amongst my real-life friendship groups this sort of "hate mob" type stuff just doesn't exist You have great friendship groups. Do you remember, by any chance how this topic was handled in your discussions (I am genuinely curios) "... Brendan Eich is gone. The creator of JavaScript and co-founder of mozilla.org has quit as Mozilla’s CEO, forced out by the uproar over a donation he made six years ago to a ballot meas…

Never came up.

If you're after my personal opinion - I think that the whole debate about gay marriage gets muddled because there's basically this interplay between the state and religion.

So you end up in this weird place where - those who really believe in the religious aspects of marriage have to be against gay marriage because it's literally "against the rules", it doesn't compile.

But then in the real world, we have a state that confers benefits based on marriage - and even in places where civil partnerships are wholly equal in the law, you still have the weird 'status' style thing whereby they're sort of seen as being lesser.

To me it's almost completely a nomenclature thing. If we didn't have marriages or civil partnerships, and instead we asked whether two people (of arbitrary sex) should be allowed to cohabit and/or enter a contract with each other to share assets, I think it'd be way simpler.

I mean there'd still be the stalwart homophobes that just think it's capital-W Wrong or think that religiously they need to at least publically claim it as being wrong, but what I wrote up there I think is a big part of it.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#55

Post by marcinzm » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:03 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #18

geekone wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ones were troubling? I don't see anything that stands out on the page linked.

2006: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20Jun... > I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing. 2013: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_Janua... > There is little ev…

Why are people down voting this? ceejayoz cited specific quotes with references.

Seems sort of hypocritical to me that people who seem to be arguing for the freedom of intellectual debate do the exact opposite if facts don't line up in their favor.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#56

Post by geofft » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:03 AM UTC

Worth noting that (as far as I know) Stallman was not a paid employee of MIT, certainly not a professor or anything. He had an office because, I believe, Gerry Sussman (and probably others) thought he should have an office. He's listed as a "visiting scientist" on CSAIL's page: https://www.csail.mit.edu/person/richard-stallman He's around on the mailing list (mostly to reply to every mention of software with a question about its license and every website with a demand that it work without JavaScript) but he replies with his GNU address. `finger rms@csail.mit.edu` calls him a "Visitor" and says "Project: mail forwarding."

Source: was at MIT a decade ago, was on the CSAIL mailing list until I decided to actually start filtering mail last week (good timing me). Also he somewhat famously left MIT right before starting GNU to ensure MIT wouldn't own the copyrights, and it would be surprising/confusing if he rejoined.

(The cynic in me believes he's resigning because it's far more newsworthy to say "resigned from MIT" instead of "resigned from the FSF," especially given all the news headlines calling him "Famous MIT Computer Scientist," and it also has far less of an impact on his life or his goals than resigning from the FSF would.)

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#57

Post by mindslight » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:04 AM UTC

partialrecall wrote: post #42

mindslight wrote: post #27

What a disappointing course of events. I cannot fathom how an institution such as MIT can have such a thin spine. But I also couldn't fathom the first time I walked into a Sears in a long while (ca 2010) and saw an "online catalog" which merely searched Amazon's website. I can't help but think this is the same creative destruction - rather than falling back to a core strength of traditional reputation, even a learnin…

> "Free Software ushering in lynch flash mobs" How did Free Software do that? I don't see how the Free Software movement in practice or in theory has any share of the blame for this social phenomenon.

Most of the machines that spread the outrage mob were running GNU/Linux or another Free OS. I'm not just being pointlessly obtuse - there is a deeper connection in that when people are given freedom, they don't necessarily just use it for noble purposes.

Sure, it can't really be said that the outrage rags and facebooks are Free Software per se - rather they are proprietary viral-outrage-generating machines even though they may be built on top of Free Software. But setting them up would have been a bit harder without Free Software, and having more investment on the line would have perhaps discouraged wanton slander.

Really I just think it's a novel juxtaposition - we've had plenty of time to come to terms with Free Software facilitating individualist mal-actions (eg child pornography), but facilitating social mal-actions is a newer thing thing to come to terms with.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#58

Post by teh_klev » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:04 AM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #44

teh_klev wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have, with the best most charitable reading of your post, no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps some context would be useful with regards to Stallman. Edit: in my defence, is op defending Stallman, or Epstein? Honestly, I don't know how Epstein and Stallman are related. I don't follow Stallman's every statement he makes. I simply asked for some context and enlightenment in this headline and esotericn's comment…

> Edit: in my defence, is op defending Stallman, or Epstein? Honestly, I don't know how Epstein and Stallman are related. I don't follow Stallman's every statement he makes. I simply asked for some context and enlightenment in this headline and op's comment. Am I the OP in this context? I think this is exactly what I'm talking about? I've made a comment explaining how this environment baffles me, and you think my com…

> and you think my comment must be somehow tribal in nature.

Tribal in what way? And I said nothing of the sort. I have no "tribal" interest in Stallman's efforts or his beliefs. I think the man has done some fine things in terms of GPLv2, less so v3, but I'm certainly not an absolutist.

I genuinely didn't understand your comment, which you still haven't answered, yet you attack me for being "tribal".

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#59

Post by claudeganon » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:06 AM UTC

75dvtwin wrote: post #43

> Amongst my real-life friendship groups this sort of "hate mob" type stuff just doesn't exist You have great friendship groups. Do you remember, by any chance how this topic was handled in your discussions (I am genuinely curios) "... Brendan Eich is gone. The creator of JavaScript and co-founder of mozilla.org has quit as Mozilla’s CEO, forced out by the uproar over a donation he made six years ago to a ballot meas…

Honestly, I’m happy to live in a future where bankrolling the denial of other’s human rights is something that can cost you your job, even if you’re wealthy and powerful.

No one would have questioned him being forced to resign if he had financed an anti-miscegenation initiative. It’s just that hatred of LGBTQ people is still normalized to the extent that people think you should be “given a pass.”

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#60

Post by esotericn » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:06 AM UTC

teh_klev wrote: post #58

esotericn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Edit: in my defence, is op defending Stallman, or Epstein? Honestly, I don't know how Epstein and Stallman are related. I don't follow Stallman's every statement he makes. I simply asked for some context and enlightenment in this headline and op's comment. Am I the OP in this context? I think this is exactly what I'm talking about? I've made a comment explaining how this environment baffles me, and you think my com…

> and you think my comment must be somehow tribal in nature. Tribal in what way? And I said nothing of the sort. I have no "tribal" interest in Stallman's efforts or his beliefs. I think the man has done some fine things in terms of GPLv2, less so v3, but I'm certainly not an absolutist. I genuinely didn't understand your comment, which you still haven't answered, yet you attack me for being "tribal".

Well, you asked whether I'm defending Stallman or Epstein.

The answer is, err, "not applicable"?