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Remove Richard Stallman

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Re: Remove Richard Stallman

#51
post #42

People like the author of this article --- people who haven't accomplished a hundredth of what RMS has --- have power only because reasonable people fear that they'll be next if they don't join the mob. You don't have to be afraid. We don't have to put up with cancel culture. All that's necessary is to just ignore these angry articles and focus on meaningful work, treating anger as a distraction.

They have power because people fear that they'll be the next one whose sexual assault is publicly written off by "luminaries of the industry".

Obviously you would fear that, Stallman is being called a pedophile and his jobs is in danger, all without a single iota of proof, just because the internet mob made him his next target.

Re: Remove Richard Stallman

#54
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People like Stallman don't get offended What? Quoting Stallman himself at https://stallman.org/notes/2010-jan-apr.html : "I have often felt offended by criticism of my views, but people have a right to criticize and even insult ideas they disagree with, so I learned to live with it and Muslims must learn it too. Nothing that people do or say is entitled to immunity from criticism — not even the Church of Emacs." Al…

The article takes issue with Stallman commenting callously on a sensitive topic, having a view the author finds offensive, and directing those comments insensitively toward the wrong people. She never presents an argument why what he said was problematic. This makes me believe that regardless of the correctness of what he's saying, the mere fact that he's "defending" this side of the issue is itself offensive to her.…

> She never presents an argument why what he said was problematic

Okay, then I will.

Stallman states incorrectly that "The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing. Only that they had sex."

That is incorrect because "sexual assault", according to US law, means "any nonconsensual sexual act proscribed by Federal, tribal, or State law, including when the victim lacks capacity to consent." - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/34/12291#a_27 (34 U.S. Code § 12291 (29)).

While the military has a different set of laws, I'll point to https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/920 as an example, because it's clear and easy to find:

  (b)Sexual Assault.—Any person subject to this chapter who—
    (1) commits a sexual act upon another person by—
      (A) threatening or placing that other person in fear;
      (B) making a fraudulent representation that the sexual
        act serves a professional purpose; or
      (C) inducing a belief by any artifice, pretense, or
        concealment that the person is another person
You can see that "force or violence" is not a requirement for sexual assault.

Similarly (again, this is from military law, but similar principles apply to civilians)

    (2) commits a sexual act upon another person—
     (A) without the consent of the other person; or
     (B) when the person knows or reasonably should
       know that the other person is asleep, unconscious,
       or otherwise unaware that the sexual act is occurring;
It's still sexual assault even if no force or violence is needed because the other person is unconscious.

In all of these, the key aspect is "consent", or rather, the lack of consent.

Many of Selam G.'s arguments are based on the legal concept of consent. For examples:

> then he says that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely willing”.

The law is that an enslaved child cannot consent to sex in this way, so cannot be regarded as being "entirely willing."

(As another example, an 11 year old student may be "entirely willing" to have sex with his/her 35 year old teacher - it's still illegal as the presumption is that proper consent cannot exist at that age and power relationship.)

Stallman attempts to justify this as: “I think it is morally absurd to define “rape” in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17.”

As the topic is an accusation of sexual assault, which is a legal definition, and which seems to be correctly applied for this case, it is irrelevant to bring up a personal view that the law is wrong.

More problematic, we all know that hard age numbers like this have problems. What magic is there that I can buy beer in Canada at 18 but cross the border it's a problem?

But age is an attempt to make the law clear. If 17 is fine, why not 16? 13? 8? 2? Make it too young, and there cannot be consent.

Since Stallman doesn't seem to accept that concept of consent, can we assume that if Prof. X of MIT had sex with an "entirely willing" 5 year old, it would have been okay according to his morals?

I hope not! But the problematic part is Stallman never presents a valid argument why sexual assault is the wrong term, and the best reading I can make of his views is that he doesn't understand consent. Which is indeed problematic.

As an example, if someone notifies him that FSF organizer Foo sexually assaulted Bar by having sex with Bar while Bar was drunk and asleep, and who did not previously give consent, would Stallman respond that that wasn't assault, and not address the actual issue?

Re: Remove Richard Stallman

#55

So how many more people have to die before we finally understand cancel culture is an abysmally bad idea? Not that I believe RMS is in immediate danger, but for anyone else who's more weak-willed, a mean-spirited article like this would be a career-ending, if not life-ending matter.

Serious question, not a gotcha: Who has died as a result of cancel culture? Are you only using the words "die" and "life-ending" figuratively here, or is there actual precedent?

Alec Holowka was a game dev who committed suicide recently after allegations of sexual assault by ex-girlfriend Zoe Quinn. He was the developer behind Night in the Woods. The NitW studio said they've cut ties with him after Quinn's allegations.

Re: Remove Richard Stallman

#56

So how many more people have to die before we finally understand cancel culture is an abysmally bad idea? Not that I believe RMS is in immediate danger, but for anyone else who's more weak-willed, a mean-spirited article like this would be a career-ending, if not life-ending matter.

If you think 'cancel culture' is bad wait until you hear about sexual assault trauma.

Re: Remove Richard Stallman

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the most sensible thing if you're a juror on a case. No, it's the most sensible thing in each and every single case, whether you're a juror or just someone reading the news. Let the pitchforks remain in the past, and let's enjoy the benefits of living in a civilized society where rule of law and demonstration of guilt is what dictates punishment.

Do you honestly believe moral judgments of historical or famous figures have to be suspended in every case where word of their misdeeds emerged after their deaths and they were never brought to trial?

It's painfully obvious that "moral judgement" should not be mandated by a random blogger with an axe to grind and desperately seeking the spotlight to signal his/her own personal moral virtues to the world.

Everything else is the equivalent to grasping at pitchforks.

Re: Remove Richard Stallman

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did he try to absolve Minsky of guilt? I thought the thesis of his defense of Minsky was: "Whatever conduct you want to criticize, you should describe it with a specific term that avoids moral vagueness about the nature of the criticism." "The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. The term “sexual assault” is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation: taking claims that someone did X and leading…

This is such an odd argument. No one kvetches over the meaning of "murder" because some are more brutal or premeditated than others.

> This is such an odd argument. No one kvetches over the meaning of "murder" because some are more brutal or premeditated than others.

This assertion is patently wrong. Discussions whether an homicide constitutes murder (1st degree or felony) or manslaughter (voluntary or not) are plentiful.

Re: Remove Richard Stallman

#59
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what statutory rape means... rape. The question is whether assault was involved. And this is completely unrelated to whether the girls were trafficked, unless there's evidence that he conspired with Epstein. And that's the type of hair splitting that RMS does, and he needs to be more careful about it. He's not wrong in what he said, but he could be wrong for saying it.

What do you think assault means? Do you mistakenly think "assault" means "force is used"?

Here's the Wikipedia definition[1], which seems accurate to what I understand from the term:

> An assault is the act of inflicting physical harm or unwanted physical contact upon a person or, in some specific legal definitions, a threat or attempt to commit such an action. > > ... > > Traditionally, common law legal systems had separate definitions for assault and battery. When this distinction is observed, battery refers to the actual bodily contact, whereas assault refers to a credible threat or attempt to cause battery.

So, to prove assault, you need to prove that the victim didn't want the physical contact.

Rape usually involves assault (in fact, it's defined as a type of "sexual assault"), but statutory rape is a bit different because it essentially says that an individual cannot consent under a certain age and is defined as not involving force. So, I think it's fair to say that statutory rape is a special case of rape that doesn't involve assault. Some jurisdictions use the term "assault" to describe statutory rape as well, but I personally think that's unhelpful because we want statutory rape to include cases where the victim made every indication that they wanted the encounter (they're below the age of consent, after all), so using the term assault just confuses the term.

And that brings us to force. A rape can happen where physical force isn't involved, but it can involve other types of force, like intimidation or other types of manipulation (e.g. encouraging use of drugs to reduce inhibitions). I think nonphysical assault still involves force at some level (again, maybe not physical force), so I would say rape requires force.

If you're going to claim that someone is guilty of assault, I think you need to prove some use of force, physical or otherwise. I believe that statutory rape does not necessarily involve assault, at least not in the sense that we use it for people over the age of consent. Sex with someone under the age of consent may be considered rape even if the exact same set of circumstances above the age of consent wouldn't be treated as such. Therefore I don't think we can automatically assume assault from a statutory rape case.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault

Re: Remove Richard Stallman

#60
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think assault means? Do you mistakenly think "assault" means "force is used"?

Here's the Wikipedia definition[1], which seems accurate to what I understand from the term: > An assault is the act of inflicting physical harm or unwanted physical contact upon a person or, in some specific legal definitions, a threat or attempt to commit such an action. > > ... > > Traditionally, common law legal systems had separate definitions for assault and battery. When this distinction is observed, battery r…

> If you're going to claim that someone is guilty of assault, I think you need to prove some use of force, physical or otherwise.

A real dictionary (Chambers) says this:

Assault:

1) violent physical or verbal attack

2) any act that causes someone to feel physically threatened, which is considered reckless or intentional, and which need not necessarily involve any physical violence

3) rape or attempted rape

Stallman is attempting to use human language like a programming language, but it does not work like that. That's not a problem with humans or other people: it's a deficit that Stallman has. Stallman is also claiming to ignore the legal definitions of technical words, while relying on those legal definitions when they support his points. This is an inconsistency in his argument.

Wikipedia has a strong Americo-centric world view and that sucks when we're discussing rape because in some states an act doesn't count as rape unless the victim uses physical force to fight off an attacker. That's a pretty terrible definition.

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