How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls • Hacker News Board

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#51

Post by JadeNB » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

helpPeople wrote: post #22

lotsofpulp wrote: post #4

I appreciate Apple offering its own apps, as I don't trust anyone else with my data.

You should not be trusting anyone, including Apple with your data. The same company that won't admit hardware flaws won't admit they use your Data.

> The same company that won't admit hardware flaws won't admit they use your Data.

Although I agree that one shouldn't trust anyone, there's a difference here: certain uses of personal data come with reporting requirements, or are outright forbidden, whereas I think that there are no such requirements around hardware flaws.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#52

Post by panpanna » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

mitchty wrote: post #48

panpanna wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd I have hard time believing this was not intentional. Edit: on Android Spotify is at place 2-4. iTunes is nowhere to be seen but that could be explained with the horrible reviews it has received (some are even legit).

I have a hard time believing it was. iTunes search is wicked bad and has been since day 1. After they started allowing tags for apps it got worse, which is an impressive achievement.

Note how this doesn't affect apples own apps?

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#53

Post by noer » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #24

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

>Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that. Do they want to listen to music? Do they want to create or record music?

FWIW, I just searched for "music" and saw: An ad, a story ("run with music"), apple music, two music players I've never heard of and finally Spotify in position 6.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#54

Post by toxik » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

nixpulvis wrote: post #43

coldtea wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should work forever, as long you own the field, and people want to use said field because that gives them access to a huge marketplace of devices that you've built and sold. So there's that...

You lost me with your analogy. Let me extend the pigskin thought exprement a bit. If I own the football team, and the field, and the city (hell, why not), then sure I can choose who plays QB, so I choose my son. Maybe at the start he's even not that bad of a QB, and our team wins some games. Everyone is happy. After a little while though, people realize there's no sense trying out for QB on my team. My son, now left…

I think the analogy isn't very good. Let me try.

It's as if you're the one selling all the tickets to the only stadium in town, and you make it so that when your team plays, tickets are cheaper, more abundant, and more visible.

Another local team wants to play too, but their ticket prices are outrageous, there's no promotion of the event either, and they might actually be banned from the stadium unless they use ONLY your equipment.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#55

Post by yoz-y » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

mitchty wrote: post #48

panpanna wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd I have hard time believing this was not intentional. Edit: on Android Spotify is at place 2-4. iTunes is nowhere to be seen but that could be explained with the horrible reviews it has received (some are even legit).

I have a hard time believing it was. iTunes search is wicked bad and has been since day 1. After they started allowing tags for apps it got worse, which is an impressive achievement.

Judging from the sheer number of "ASO" companies that contacted me the week I put out an app on the store, I believe that the main problem is mainly really bad spam control.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#56

Post by Wowfunhappy » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #29

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

> Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. Whose apps should have come preinstalled on iPhones? Samsungs? No apps, let the user install everything from scratch? The whole value proposition from Apple is that you get something that "Just works". It might have issues and bugs, like everything has, but the idea behind "just works" => is more or less ready, no fiddling required for the regular Joe.

I can understand new iPhones coming with a Camera, Web Browser, etc preinstalled. However, the Apple Watch app (for instance) really doesn't need to be there.

Permissions are the bigger issue, though.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#57

Post by Cthulhu_ » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

jakear wrote: post #35

Causality1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU fined Microsoft six hundred million dollars just for including Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player in Windows by default. Apple's behavior is much worse than that.

IMO, that fine is (for lack of a better term) bullshit. Does Android present a browser selection to EU customers?

No, but there are at least three running or finished antitrust cases going against Google from the EU, for Google Shopping, AdSense and Android; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_vs._Google for a summary.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#58

Post by coldtea » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #25

fermenflo wrote: post #20

Ok? I feel like Apple is free to promote whatever they damn please on their own platform. Are we seriously criticizing a company for promoting their products ahead of 3rd party products on their own platform? and I mean, how much money do you think Apple is making from someone having their compass app downloaded? Seems like an inflammatory and in-genuine story.

The EU fined Microsoft six hundred million dollars just for including Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player in Windows by default. Apple's behavior is much worse than that.

How many times this old wives tale will have to be repeated till people understand what went on then, and how it's nothing like it's now?

Microsoft then had a monopoly on desktop OSes at the time, at 95+ (close to 97%, in fact).

Apple has a paltry sub-50% share of mobile OSes.

The "But they have 100% share on their own products" is not an argument, as far as the law is concerned, as monopolies are not judged this way. That's the same reason why you can't legally force McDonalds to also sell Burger King burgers, or GAP to sell Banana Republic clothes...

And even MS monopoly position wasn't the issue (having a monopoly naturally is not illegal). The issue was it used its monopoly position to threaten and bribe OEMs to not work with competitors.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#59

Post by xenihn » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

noer wrote: post #53

frogpelt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

>Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd. That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that. Do they want to listen to music? Do they want to create or record music? FWIW, I just searched for "music" and saw: An ad, a story ("run with music"), apple music, two music players I've never heard of and finally Spotify in position 6.

>That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that.

Search optimization. Determine what most users ultimately end up selecting for specific queries, build up your data set over time, then weigh priorities and determine result order based on that.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#60

Post by Wowfunhappy » Mon, Sep 09, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #24

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

> However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app.

If I delete Apple's Calendar, install a third party Calendar app (like Fantastical), and click a date link, I'll get a message asking me if I want to reinstall Apple's Calendar. I think it's pretty darn clear in that scenario what the user actually wants.