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Sunsetting Python 2

python.org

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Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#51

Post by avian »

CJefferson wrote: post #21
mrweasel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't believe that many will step up and take over. Many will complain, but few will do the actual work. Even if it's just security fixes, there's still the process of testing and release management, and honestly, I don't blame the core Python team for no longer wanting to do release management of both Python 2 and 3.

The biggest problem is having a place to organise. The Python foundation is threatening to sue anyone continuing something called Python 2, or even a similar name. Finding volunteers who are willing to get sued to work on Python will be hard.

Are you referring to that "Python 2.8" thing [1] that happened some years ago? A comment from PSF [2] makes it clear that they don't have any issue with people continuing to develop their Python 2 codebase further. It is what their open source explicitly permits after all.

They do have issue with people using a trademarked name and not making it clear that their work isn't endorsed by the Python Foundation.

[1] https://www.naftaliharris.com/blog/why-making-python-2.8/

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13147972

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#52

Post by XCabbage »

CJefferson wrote: post #21
mrweasel wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't believe that many will step up and take over. Many will complain, but few will do the actual work. Even if it's just security fixes, there's still the process of testing and release management, and honestly, I don't blame the core Python team for no longer wanting to do release management of both Python 2 and 3.

The biggest problem is having a place to organise. The Python foundation is threatening to sue anyone continuing something called Python 2, or even a similar name. Finding volunteers who are willing to get sued to work on Python will be hard.

You've asserted this twice on this post, both times without any evidence. I Googled, couldn't find the threat you're basing the claim on, but DID find that the PSF Trademark Usage Policy (https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/) explicitly allows most sorts of freely distributed Python-related products to use the name without permission:

> Use of the word "Python" in the names of freely distributed products like IronPython, wxPython, Python Extensions, etc. -- Allowed when referring to use with or suitability for the Python programming language.

We can quibble about whether a Python 2 fork would technically meet the definition here, but it seems to me that it would meet it at least as much as IronPython does; going after such a fork would contradict the rule implied by the examples in this section, even if it doesn't unambiguously violate the definition. I think they've already granted the public the right to use the word "Python" in a Python 2 fork and couldn't successfully sue over it now even if they wanted to.

What's your basis for suggesting that they've threatened to do so?

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#54

Post by wongarsu »

CJefferson wrote: post #25

One missing question: Q) I like Python 2. Can I take over Python 2 maintenence? A) NO. Try it and we'll sue you.

More like

Q) I like Python 2. Can I take over Python 2 maintenence?

A) Sure. Just don't pretend to be us; call your fork something other than Python 2

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#55

Post by VBprogrammer »

melling wrote: post #47
VBprogrammer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works on a 99% Python 2 codebase I think this is a very necessary step. Hopefully one of our larger customers will realise we are still running their critical infrastructure on Python 2 and make enough of a fuss that we can justify the expense.

It was announced in 2014 that support was ending in 2020. It seems a bit wrong to surprise a customer now.

We have a more complicated relationship with our customers than that implied. Suffice to say they wouldn't actually be footing the bill.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#56

Post by richardwhiuk »

mrweasel wrote: post #5
coldtea wrote: post #3

> If people find catastrophic security problems in Python 2, or in software written in Python 2, then volunteers will not help you. If you need help with Python 2 software, then volunteers will not help you. Well, isn't it the benefit of FOSS, that volunteers can, and in the case of such a critical piece, so much used as Python 2, in all probability will, step up. Doesn't have to be the same people as the core team i…

I honestly don't believe that many will step up and take over. Many will complain, but few will do the actual work. Even if it's just security fixes, there's still the process of testing and release management, and honestly, I don't blame the core Python team for no longer wanting to do release management of both Python 2 and 3.

Ubuntu 18.04 has support for Python 2.7 til 2028 I think.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#57

Post by j-pb »

And now remind yourself that there are self driving cars out there and autonomous digging equipment that is based on ROS, which doesn't have any plan or intent to move to python 3.

Fun stuff...

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#58

Post by rndgermandude »

raverbashing wrote: post #28
tobr wrote: post #20

I don't have a stake in this and don't know much about the background, so pardon if this comment is out of touch. Is this the first notice of this date? January 1 is just 16 weeks away, which seems like an awfully short notice for ending security updates of a very popular language. EDIT: I see now that they mention that 2020 has been the plan since 2014, which seems reasonable.

If you read the article it was explained there, but tl;dr: it was announced in 2014 (that support would end in Jan 1st 2020)

It was announced in 2014 that the sunset day would be further extended to 2020. The original sunset date was 2015, announced in 2008.

That's more than 10 years ago that the intention to sunset python2 at a specific date was announced.

Anybody who, after 2008, started new, serious python2 projects that were supposed to have a life expectancy beyond a few years was rather "optimistic", and anybody who did after 2015 was almost callous, especially if you "played" with other people's money.

Re: Sunsetting Python 2

#60

Post by gigatexal »

The transition to python 3 from 2 was rough I’ll give you that. But companies and maintainers have had years and years to either fork and port or altogether rewrite their code for python 3 — the only python that matters.

I liked the stance the post took: it was very matter-of-fact in its tone regarding python 2 support — consultants are there for that and they will charge a mint to give you time you should have taken to move your codebase to python 3.

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