Earlier quoted context omitted.
So if your daughter is kidnapped by the a Colombian Drug Cartel and you decided that since you're a badass, you're going to go save her. Then you kill 20 baddies that are themselves cutthroat murderers that would have undeniably killed a greater number of people. Can you really tell me that the ends wouldn't justify the means? If MI-5 kills 4 terrorists which where preparing to bomb a bus station with hundreds if not…
Rights are a social contract. You give up your rights once you violate those of others.
Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
51–60 of 65 posts
Re: Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you miss the bit where Jesus asserted power over death and came back to life after three days? The sacrifice was a blood sacrifice, not a soul sacrifice. Eternal suffering doesn't come into it.
Theologically Jesus is to have suffered all that humans can suffer. So, even though He resurrected in 3 days, that doesn't mean He couldn't have experienced an eternity of torment. By His own account, He experienced complete abandonment by God.
Re: Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you miss the bit where Jesus asserted power over death and came back to life after three days? The sacrifice was a blood sacrifice, not a soul sacrifice. Eternal suffering doesn't come into it.
Theologically Jesus is to have suffered all that humans can suffer. So, even though He resurrected in 3 days, that doesn't mean He couldn't have experienced an eternity of torment. By His own account, He experienced complete abandonment by God.
Re: Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
If epistemological state means anything at all it means (the possibility of) being able to hold a certain belief or acquire certain knowledge. It is as meaningful or as meaningless as using the phrase "ethical state" or the phrase "aesthetical state" and I stand by that claim. If EY had meant: human nature, with all its cognitive biases and imperfections of memory and perception and limited thinking speed and imagina…
AIUI = "as I understand it". Sorry for any confusion. > If epistemological state means anything at all ... It is clear (to me, anyway) that by "epistemological state" Yudkowsky means "state of beliefs and knowledge" rather than what you say is the only thing it can possibly mean. Why do you think the only thing it could mean is what you state? (I think he should have said "epistemic" rather than "epistemological".) >…
Fixed.
Re: Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
The debate has gone on great without me, but the only thing I would point out and verify is that in the context of Elizier's writing, as was pointed out, the "epistemological state" is definitely going to be the assigned probabilities the entity is carrying around internally for Bayesian updates. He may not have spelled that out this time but where the term might be fuzzy in other people's hands I do feel like I know…
Heh, welcome back :) Okay - then I need to brush up on this Bayesian stuff, care to point me in the right direction? I only have undergrad level maths only so nothing to tricky please !! I really haven't meant to raise anybody's hackles here.
Re: Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
By running under the paradigm that they assume they are flawed? That's the core claim in there. > ..if we respect our fellows' human rights This is a problematic clause. Whose rights do you disrespect: the one you pushed, or the 5 you could have saved?
Deontological ethics are hierarchical. Greater goods take precedence over lesser goods. But, killing someone for a greater good doesn't making killing good, i.e. it isn't justified.
Huh. By the sound of it, they take the stance that violence against non-violence is a flat-out unjustifiable act, regardless of the consequences.
But on those grounds, can't you say the trolley is a violent enemy that must be stopped, so violent acts are justifiable? You certainly can't expect to cause violence only to the enemy, especially if you consider psychological violence to be violence (and why wouldn't it be? Torture is torture.). By causing violence only to the enemy, you may be causing psychological violence to any who happen to in the blast radius / capable of witnessing your violence, thus you are causing violence to them.
So it's a moral goal for a flawless world with no-one else in it. Of course, if the whole world were like this, then pushing someone in front of the trolley would be justifiable, because they would have not been justified in not throwing themselves in front of such a violent enemy, if they were aware and able to do so.
I don't buy it. Ideals are worthless if they can only exist in an impossible world.
Re: Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
AIUI = "as I understand it". Sorry for any confusion. > If epistemological state means anything at all ... It is clear (to me, anyway) that by "epistemological state" Yudkowsky means "state of beliefs and knowledge" rather than what you say is the only thing it can possibly mean. Why do you think the only thing it could mean is what you state? (I think he should have said "epistemic" rather than "epistemological".) >…
Hi gjm11, I want to impress upon you sincerely that I am not sneering. I do, as I have said (and I stick by it), dislike EY's writing on a stylistic level. I'm not going to hide that. This is partly down to personal taste. I think that style says a hell of a lot about the substance of a person's thought†. Having read countless academic and academic-type essays where people try to mask their lack of knowledge with a h…
[1] Perhaps indirectly.
Yeah, I like concise writing too. Concise and clear is even better. Concise, clear and funny, better still. Yudkowsky doesn't do too well on conciseness, but I think he does just fine on clarity and humour. (You might want to bear in mind that the article linked from here is part of a lengthy ongoing series (perhaps I should say: series of series) that EY was writing at the time; it's doubtless clearer when read in the context of the rest of it.)
Although "epistemic" would have been better, I really don't think "epistemological" need have been such a roadblock. If someone refers to an organism's "biological makeup" or "physiological condition", I hope it would be clear that they mean the kind of makeup/condition with which biology/physiology is concerned, rather than the organism's pet theories about biology and physiology. So also with "epistemological state".
What do other users of such terminology mean by it? I just asked Google for >> and of the first page results I reckon: first one is this discussion; second one is EY's meaning; third is ambiguous; fourth is yours; fifth is EY's; sixth is EY's (and says in so many words: 'Philosophers tend to suppose that one's "epistemological state" is constituted by beliefs'; the authors are philosophers); seventh is yours; eighth is ambiguous but I think nearer EY's; ninth is a sort of hybrid, nearer to yours; for the tenth (of which I can see only the snippet Google provides, the rest being behind a paywall) I can't tell. Some of those hits are from people whose use of philosophical language I wouldn't trust for an instant, but at least four seem reputable. (I am not sure whether to be relieved or alarmed that the ones that look reputable to me on other grounds are also the ones that favour EY's usage; perhaps I'm suffering from some bias or something.) It seems like EY's usage is pretty reasonable. I still think "epistemic" is better; as you may have noticed, he's now changed it.
Re: Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
#58The objection is he making is essentially the objection a rule-consequentialist would make. Which is that although in this particular situation it would produce better consequences to kill the innocent man and save the 5 people, overall it would produce worse consequences if everyone followed the rule that killing innocent people is an acceptable means to some end.
I think it's a bit more subtle than that, although he does point out the danger of imitators. See my reply at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2088562 .
Here is the rule: "Do no harm."
Why should we follow it?
A rule-consequentialist would say, "Because if everyone followed that rule all the time it would lead to better consequences, on average, than if people tried to calculate the consequences of each individual action and act to maximize them."
Why would that lead to better consequences?
A rule-consequentialist could say, "Because people are quite bad at calculating consequences, especially in the tumultuous time before making a critical ethical decision. While we have had the time to think and properly calculate the hypothetical consequences of everyone following the rule."
I think that's exactly the argument Eliezer is making.
Re: Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
What ends are good in consequentialism? De-ontological morals to one degree or another are necessary to avoid moral relativism. If you agree moral relativism is bad, you agree consequentialism is bad.
I do not understand how that follows. It's entirely possible to imagine a world in which a god/God judges you by the results of your actions instead of your intentions. (E.g. a woman may have been raped, but pre-marital sex still condemns her to Hell; or, perhaps less unfairly, you're not "saved through faith alone" but rather judged by how many people you've positively affected.)
Re: Ends Don't Justify Means (Among Humans)
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
Rights are a social contract. You give up your rights once you violate those of others.
Oh I agree. The moment you go on a killing rampage to rescue your daughter from the cartels, you justify other people taking action against you to protect themselves. The thing is, there needs to be someone that resigns their rights and does the right (so to speak) thing. Someone needs to keep the terrorists at bay. Someone needs to protect the citizens from the gangs. Morally objectionable? Maybe. In the eyes of a f…