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No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

zdnet.com

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Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#51

Post by protomyth »

wzdd wrote: post #43
cheald wrote: post #34

This is a good (but painful) thing. The GPL is designed to counteract the sort distribution lockdown that the App Store represents, and it's doing its job here. The GPL is diametrically opposed to the App Store ecosystem (buy once, reuse/modify never), and it's a good thing that it's being enforced, even if it does mean the loss of quality software on the iOS platform. This really does underscore, however, how import…

I'm not entirely convinced about this, so perhaps someone can help me out. If I contribute to a BSD-licensed project but don't assign copyright, wouldn't that give me the right to ask Apple to remove the project from their store on copyright grounds, assuming somebody submitted it there? What does the GPL have to do with it, in general? (I realise the specifics of this case are slightly different.)

If a project is under the BSD and you contribute code under the BSD, you gave rights via the license. If you change your mind the you poison the BSD licensed project. Why contribute?

Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#52

Post by protomyth »

ajross wrote: post #14
alanh wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Darwin? How is it stealing if it's open source, and the end result is the best desktop OS ever created? Sheesh And Apple's work on open source Clang/LLVM and WebKit has been quite significant has it not?

WebKit is a descendant of KHTML, and thus LGPL by requirement. I have a hard time believing Apple would have ever opened this technology had they developed it internally.

Clang? OpenCL? I think there are counter examples.

Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#53

Post by saurik »

foljs wrote: post #16
saurik wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody who actually has to use Apple's "open source" website, you have to realize that the code for the projects listed there is often: a) out of date or unrealized (for which they are entitled to do with BSD code, but when it comes to GPL I file complaints) b) redacted and uncompilable (they purposely remove source code for specific targets that is still listed in the build environment, or hold back critical he…

1) (a) and (b) Applies mostly to the Darwin source. Apple doesn't provide you with the latest sources before it has it released commercially. Big f'n surprise. Not many people are interested in Darwin anyways. (c) Actually, you can get the WebKit code and build it, and you'll have a WebKit browser to run. I've done it. Don't know what you are talking about. Did you expect the whole code for Safari? They sure give eno…

Also, "Apple doesn't provide you with the latest sources before it has it released commercially" has nothing to do with anything I said. Where did I claim I wanted the source code to something that was unreleased?

If you want an example, as you obviously don't believe me, RIGHT NOW Apple is not in compliance with the GPL as they have not released the source code to WebCore, which is licensed under LGPL, /as shipped/ for iOS 4.1 or 4.2. They have no requirement to release WebKit (which they simply /don't/ for mobile), but they /have/ to release WebCore.

Seriously: why did /anyone/ upvote this comment? The poster was either needlessly inflammatory without any new contributions ("Bzzz, wrong"), reliant upon straw men (I never claimed to want the code to Safari or any other project that is not explicitly open source), unrelated to the conversation (lumping unrelated features into the "compiler"), or downright off-topic (discussing anything other than Apple's open source website). Please educate me here.

Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#54

Post by saurik »

rmc wrote: post #22
saurik wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody who actually has to use Apple's "open source" website, you have to realize that the code for the projects listed there is often: a) out of date or unrealized (for which they are entitled to do with BSD code, but when it comes to GPL I file complaints) b) redacted and uncompilable (they purposely remove source code for specific targets that is still listed in the build environment, or hold back critical he…

so that they can avoid gcc 4.3+, when it went GPLv3. It was hard enough for them before: gcc was the one place they have been unable to redact and hoard their ARM contributions, but with GPLv3 the situation becomes untenable for them. How come GPLv3 (as opposed to GPLv2) is not in Apple's liking?

I actually am not certain, but if you'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth you can read this post to the gcc mailing list from an Apple employee, and follow the remainder of the thread:

http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2008-02/msg00516.html

For more details from other people who were discussing this issue, you can read a later thread that attempted to go into further detail, although I will not claim it will be elucidating:

http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2008-09/msg00416.html

Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#55

Post by rbanffy »

cheald wrote: post #34

This is a good (but painful) thing. The GPL is designed to counteract the sort distribution lockdown that the App Store represents, and it's doing its job here. The GPL is diametrically opposed to the App Store ecosystem (buy once, reuse/modify never), and it's a good thing that it's being enforced, even if it does mean the loss of quality software on the iOS platform. This really does underscore, however, how import…

> If you want to make it completely free (as in, "I don't care what you do with it" free), use BSD

Sadly, it's also free as "please, BigNastyCorp, feel free to take away any freedoms from your users who depend on my work". While BSD may be "more free" according to some, it's the freedoms of the users we are (or should be) protecting. For those, *GPL is the license of choice.

Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#56

Post by rbanffy »

alanh wrote: post #2

Another reason to go BSD over GPL unless you really do care about the GNU project more than shipping code & solutions.

> Another reason to go BSD over GPL

Great. This way you take away freedoms from the users.

> unless you really do care about the GNU project more than shipping code & solutions.

No. You chose GPL when you really care about the freedoms your users deserve.

Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#57

Post by rbanffy »

tbrownaw wrote: post #42
mcantelon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about advancing the GNU project as much as advancing the values expressed in the GPL: allowing your software to be built on by those who agree to return the favor. There's nothing wrong with reciprocity.

> values expressed in the GPL: allowing your software to be built on by those who agree to return the favor. GPL3 has gone far beyond that; instead of just requiring that the software be usable as a starting point and building block for new work, it now also mandates that it be user-serviceable. You don't just need to be allowed to modify the tivo software to make your own dvr, now you also need to be able to modify…

> don't just need to be allowed to modify the tivo software to make your own dvr

If you can't do that to your TiVo, is it really yours?

Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#58

Post by Stormbringer »

spiffworks wrote: post #21

This is as it should be. You cannot create an ecosystem that is diametrically opposed to every principle the FSF has ever stood for, and then expect to be able to distribute GPL licensed code from it. I'm actually glad to see the GPL working.

You know, I don't think that Apple deliberately sat down and decided to create an anti-FSF platform.

I think they sat down and tried to create a platform that would be commercially viable, but wouldn't descend into anarchy, e.g. would stay 'family friendly'. In order to ensure that, they need to maintain control. But hey, a bunch of control freaks picked a system that would maximise their control... news at 11 everyone.

Funnily enough, the GPL is also a walled garden environment. You can tell that they'd really prefer to have a system where everything (in their system) was GPLed. Please note the distinction here, they're not saying that everyone should or has to GPL their software, they're saying that if you bring your toys to their sandpit, you have to share... and they don't care what happens in that other sandpit, everyone else can go hang. If you don't like it, go play in the other sandpit where no one shares.

Therefore I am of the opinion that it is perilously close to hypocrisy for GPL fans to complain about walled gardens. The old saying about people who live in glass houses applies here I think.

Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#59

Post by Stormbringer »

rbanffy wrote: post #55
cheald wrote: post #34

This is a good (but painful) thing. The GPL is designed to counteract the sort distribution lockdown that the App Store represents, and it's doing its job here. The GPL is diametrically opposed to the App Store ecosystem (buy once, reuse/modify never), and it's a good thing that it's being enforced, even if it does mean the loss of quality software on the iOS platform. This really does underscore, however, how import…

> If you want to make it completely free (as in, "I don't care what you do with it" free), use BSD Sadly, it's also free as "please, BigNastyCorp, feel free to take away any freedoms from your users who depend on my work". While BSD may be "more free" according to some, it's the freedoms of the users we are (or should be) protecting. For those, *GPL is the license of choice.

The GPL does not give a rat's patootie about users.

The GPL is designed to ensure the maximum freedoms of developers.

That it simultaneously destroys any hope that those same developers can enrich themselves by selling the software is supremely ironic, as it forces them to live as wage slaves under the whims of their corporate overlords. Thus they gain one sort of liberty but at the expense of giving up other economic freedoms.

Frankly if someone came up to me and said that in their ideal world I wouldn't be able to sell software or build my own software company, I'd want to burn them at the stake for heresy. Fortunately the world is big enough for everyone. :D

Re: No GPL Apps for Apple's App Store

#60

Post by wzdd »

protomyth wrote: post #51
wzdd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely convinced about this, so perhaps someone can help me out. If I contribute to a BSD-licensed project but don't assign copyright, wouldn't that give me the right to ask Apple to remove the project from their store on copyright grounds, assuming somebody submitted it there? What does the GPL have to do with it, in general? (I realise the specifics of this case are slightly different.)

If a project is under the BSD and you contribute code under the BSD, you gave rights via the license. If you change your mind the you poison the BSD licensed project. Why contribute?

This is a good question to ask of a rational, logical person. However, people change their minds all the time, so I'm interested in the legalities: could a contributor to a BSD project get applications taken down? Assume the contributor is malicious, insane, or just mercurial.
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