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Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

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Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#51

Post by lyfy »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #12

It's not directly related to General Mattis, but I would recommend reading Evan Wright's book "Generation Kill". Which recounts his time being embedded with the 1st Recon Battalion, which was under the command of Mattis (Callsign Chaos) during Operation Iraqi Freedom. The book even goes briefly into a famous moment in the invasion of Iraq were General Mattis fires one of his commanders during a siege of a city. https…

If you enjoyed reading Wright's book, you may also enjoy Cpt. Nathaniel Fick's One Bullet Away. He led Second Platoon's Bravo Company.

Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#52

Post by frankbreetz »

Nasrudith wrote: post #43
frankbreetz wrote: post #19

From the article: "Nations with allies thrive, and those without them wither. Alone, America cannot protect our people and our economy. At this time, we can see storm clouds gathering. A polemicist’s role is not sufficient for a leader." This is a true statement, I just hope the damage done can be undone. We are stronger together than we are alone.

That reminds me of one thing I noticed about nations and needing a "designated driver". Occasionally one prosperous democratic nation does something which the rest of the world can tell would be a terrible idea, warn them as such and get ignored because so many feel so strongly about. Predictably disaster strikes. The int It makes me wonder if some sort of international veto arrangement might be a good idea - unfortu…

I like this idea, it seems difficult to implement, my first thought is to have the UN involved in some way, maybe if 75% of countries have the power to veto something. UN has always had a problem with enforcement, especially with G-7 type countries. It would be hard to see UN voting down Brexit and the USA and allies enforcing this somehow. We would have to generate higher respect for the UN and the world seems to be going down a different path right now.

Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#53

Post by flixic »

johnisgood wrote: post #45
flixic wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what the solution is. Neither do I but I see tribalism as one of the most destructive forces of the last decade, responsible for almost all big changes (and lack of change) in the world. Politics spill out to other areas. It is not difficult to connect the dots between rapid clicks-and-likes driven social media to the burning of Amazon forests. I don't know what the solution is but this is the meta pro…

> It is not difficult to connect the dots between rapid clicks-and-likes driven social media to the burning of Amazon forests. Would you please elaborate on how "rapid clicks-and-likes driven social media" leads to the burning of Amazon forests? I would also like to add these two related paragraphs: > According to various reports on the subject (Greenpeace, FAO), livestock farming, including soya production, is respo…

I'd rather not redirect this discussion to Amazon forests. It was just one example... and I probably could have picked a better one.

The dot chain I see is social media -> stronger tribalism, social bubbles -> strengthening of nationalist movements, particularly far right -> electing Jair Bolsonaro -> rejection of foreign aid, support of these farming techniques.

Perhaps I'm wrong in my reasoning... but I'd much prefer to be wrong about this particular example and right about the general trend.

Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#54

Post by dragonwriter »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #11
hudibras wrote: post #2

[flagged]

It has been well over a 100 years since the last time the president didn't get the nomination. It's pretty much going to be Trump vs Biden.

> It's pretty much going to be Trump vs Biden.

Possible, but I doubt it. The early non-incumbent front-runner almost never wins the nomination, and while Biden has a big lead, it's far from a majority of the party and all of his opposition and most of the party electorate differ from him in the same direction (e.g., Democrats prefer Medicare for All over keeping Obamacare by a 2:1 margin.)

As the set of candidates narrows (and it will considerably before the first primary votes are cast), that doesn't work in Biden’s favor.

Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#55

Post by lkjhdcba »

rayiner wrote: post #42
frankbreetz wrote: post #19

From the article: "Nations with allies thrive, and those without them wither. Alone, America cannot protect our people and our economy. At this time, we can see storm clouds gathering. A polemicist’s role is not sufficient for a leader." This is a true statement, I just hope the damage done can be undone. We are stronger together than we are alone.

Is that empirically true? The USA was the largest economy in the world by 1890, despite pursing a policy of isolationism for the entire century before that. By the time we entered the First World War, we accounted for a quarter of the world economy, about as much as all of Western Europe put together.

"isolationism"

Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#56

Post by dragonwriter »

rayiner wrote: post #42
frankbreetz wrote: post #19

From the article: "Nations with allies thrive, and those without them wither. Alone, America cannot protect our people and our economy. At this time, we can see storm clouds gathering. A polemicist’s role is not sufficient for a leader." This is a true statement, I just hope the damage done can be undone. We are stronger together than we are alone.

Is that empirically true? The USA was the largest economy in the world by 1890, despite pursing a policy of isolationism for the entire century before that. By the time we entered the First World War, we accounted for a quarter of the world economy, about as much as all of Western Europe put together.

> The USA was the largest economy in the world by 1890, despite pursing a policy of isolationism for the entire century before that.

The US was never isolationist unless you ignore the existence of Native American Nations; it was brutally expansionist from day one. From the time of the Monroe Doctrine, US imperialism expanded even further, leaving the US “isolationist” in most of the 19th Century mainly only in regard to what happened outside the Western Hemisphere, and not even always there.

Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#57

Post by ARandomerDude »

frankbreetz wrote: post #19

From the article: "Nations with allies thrive, and those without them wither. Alone, America cannot protect our people and our economy. At this time, we can see storm clouds gathering. A polemicist’s role is not sufficient for a leader." This is a true statement, I just hope the damage done can be undone. We are stronger together than we are alone.

It doesn't seem like that statement is obviously true.

World War I comes to mind as an instructive case against over-alliance. Likewise, in World War II, Switzerland remained famously unallied.

Not that I'm anti-alliances, but the common idea that allies are a key to survival isn't necessarily true.

Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#58

Post by rchaud »

buttcoinslol wrote: post #26
CPLX wrote: post #16

While I genuinely believe there may be an interesting perspective here, reviewing it should be done after establishing proper context. Which, in this case, is that the person speaking has so far mostly chosen to spend their life lethally inflicting American hegemony on populations around the world via mechanized warfare. Not to diminish their service on the board of Theranos and General Dynamics of course.

A military officer participating in warfare?! How uncouth. Were you just looking to get in a dig about US hegemony? I prefer it to Chinese hegemony, and so should you.

The irony of your comment is that the threat of Chinese hegemony has increased several fold precisely because of the actions of the US military in response to 9/11, the effects of which are being felt nearly two decades on.

The US has wasted over a trillion dollars trying to police areas it had no business in being in. Meanwhile, China's military buildup went uncontested, and today the US is in a trade war of its own making, only now the shoe is on the other foot.

America's the one exporting agricultural produce and China's the one selling world-leading 5G and other advanced technologies.

Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#59

Post by rayiner »

dragonwriter wrote: post #56
rayiner wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that empirically true? The USA was the largest economy in the world by 1890, despite pursing a policy of isolationism for the entire century before that. By the time we entered the First World War, we accounted for a quarter of the world economy, about as much as all of Western Europe put together.

> The USA was the largest economy in the world by 1890, despite pursing a policy of isolationism for the entire century before that. The US was never isolationist unless you ignore the existence of Native American Nations; it was brutally expansionist from day one. From the time of the Monroe Doctrine, US imperialism expanded even further, leaving the US “isolationist” in most of the 19th Century mainly only in regar…

"Isolationism" when discussing U.S. history, and as relevant here, generally refers to our reluctance to our avoidance of alliances with European countries. (Or, really, anyone. In this context, "isolationism" isn't inconsistent with "expansionist." It's more about unilateral versus multi-lateral.)

Re: Duty, Democracy and the Threat of Tribalism

#60

Post by rayiner »

dariusj18 wrote: post #48
rayiner wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that empirically true? The USA was the largest economy in the world by 1890, despite pursing a policy of isolationism for the entire century before that. By the time we entered the First World War, we accounted for a quarter of the world economy, about as much as all of Western Europe put together.

I'd be interested in seeing this data. I couldn't find anything with a cursory search, can you point me in the right direction?

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/2000-years-economic-history...
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