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The Perfect French Baguette

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Re: The Perfect French Baguette

#51

Post by tomlockwood »

charles_f wrote: post #46
tomlockwood wrote: post #39

> In addition to winning this illustrious competition, Bouattour and M’Seddi have a few other things in common. Both forewent the traditional trade school that many aspiring French bakers enter at age 16. Both have been professional bakers for less than a decade (as has this year’s winner, former engineer Fabrice Leroy). And both are first-generation Frenchmen with what Bouattour euphemistically dubs ‘origins’: famil…

What I've always found interesting as a Frenchman living in North Americ, is that there's no real equivalent to "black american" or "afro American" or "hispano American" in French. The closest you'll find is "of Tunisian origins", but that's usually left out, and not really the same. The "official" results[0] don't mention anything about his origins. The local press[1] does say his parents are from Tunisia, but only…

Thank you for the information! The idea that the rest of the press did not mention his origins reminds me of another part of the original article:

> “Sometimes we get clients coming in saying, ‘The neighbourhood is full of Tunisians – thank God you guys are here!’” he said, referring to him and his wife, who works alongside him in the bakery. “But we have Tunisian origins too.”

That's another interesting thing to me - which makes me also think about what you said:

> What I've always found interesting as a Frenchman living in North Americ, is that there's no real equivalent to "black american" or "afro American" or "hispano American" in French. The closest you'll find is "of Tunisian origins", but that's usually left out, and not really the same.

I think the core truth here is that even though the effects of racism and xenophobia are quite pronounced, and cannot be dismissed, that all these terms are "made up". I was trolling /pol/ one day and I had someone say to me that the French people weren't "white" which is, truly, consistent with some conceptions of whiteness. But, the most strict original conceptions of whiteness that were made in the 1800s said that Scottish and Irish people weren't white!!! It seems that these sorts of identities twist and change over time, because there's no underlying truth to them. Imagine the rage and fury of those who see white purity as possible when they encounter white hispanic people, or white slavic people, or southern Italians (who made up most american-italian immigrants) saying they are white.

So I think the identity of "Tunisian origins" is just as valid as any other racial identity, and just as indistinct. I don't think the American categories are any better or worse, but it is an interesting point of difference.

Re: The Perfect French Baguette

#52

Post by Haga »

entee wrote: post #7
ceejayoz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We manage to factory produce prosciutto, which takes 18 months, cheeses that require years to mature, alcohol that takes decades, etc. 24 hours is no obstacle to a factory.

I agree with you, but I'm curious as to why french bread in stores is universally less good than french bread from dedicated bakers (places like ACME, a Berkeley based bread producer, that sell to larger stores such as Safeway I would classify as dedicated bakers). Maybe something about the volume of dough required to make bread on a truly industrial scale means it's not feasible to knead the dough properly? I was re…

Factorys Arena antagonistic processes. Theire Target mantra is forever: faster,cheaper,expandieren core audience.. that Kind oft System reduces any Kind oft Qualität target to american Toast with caramel(color) and some high speed cultures(tastelicios). It requires constant aktive resistance to prevent imprudecay.

Re: The Perfect French Baguette

#53

Post by entee »

corodra wrote: post #43
joshuak wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even in 1995 we were only really trying to delay the inevitable. Do people do this? Are there really people out there that are resistant to believing that machines can or eventually will outperform humans in any discrete task? I can see a reasonable doubt about general intelligence, but other than that surely every mechanical advance since the plow paints a clear trajectory. These kinds of articles always strike me…

Fair assertion. One I mostly agree with too. But, what's the point then? I mean, if there's no point in pursuing anything because a machine will always be better and no one is going to appreciate anything handmade anymore... What's the point? To... eat, sleep and die? I personally don't understand why a good portion of the population nowadays is okay with the idea that humans will be obsolete.

The point is simple: to paraphrase Marie Kondo, does it spark joy?

There are many things a human is better at, for example creativity and art. Maybe a computer will eventually be a better painter, but it's impossible for a computer to be a human. A work of art draws its power from how it speaks to the human experience, as such I don't think a computer will ever make good art in that sense.

Even speaking to something more concrete, just because a computer can play chess better than I can (as can the vast majority of humans), doesn't mean a game of chess with a friend is worthless. It's about the conversation, the challenge of matching wits, pushing your mind to see new things, all those things have meaning.

That's the point.

Re: The Perfect French Baguette

#54

Post by analog31 »

mumblemumble wrote: post #35
analog31 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite agreed. My family bakes all of our own bread. In fact, the kids don't even like store-bought bread unless it comes from some fancy bakery. One of them has gotten into baking. In addition to what you say, my advice is: Don't be afraid of it, just give it a try with realistic expectations. Start with something easy. Rolls and breadsticks are quite forgiving, if for no other reason than that they're usually gone b…

Speaking of schedule, Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day is one that worked well for us when we were busy. It's not the best bread in the world, but, considering the amount of effort that goes into it, the technique feels like cheating.

I should mention one more point, which is that a fair amount of the time spent making bread, is waiting. If you can interleave it with other tasks happening at home, then it isn't a huge time sink.

Re: The Perfect French Baguette

#55

Post by crucialfelix »

entee wrote: post #53
corodra wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair assertion. One I mostly agree with too. But, what's the point then? I mean, if there's no point in pursuing anything because a machine will always be better and no one is going to appreciate anything handmade anymore... What's the point? To... eat, sleep and die? I personally don't understand why a good portion of the population nowadays is okay with the idea that humans will be obsolete.

The point is simple: to paraphrase Marie Kondo, does it spark joy? There are many things a human is better at, for example creativity and art. Maybe a computer will eventually be a better painter, but it's impossible for a computer to be a human. A work of art draws its power from how it speaks to the human experience, as such I don't think a computer will ever make good art in that sense. Even speaking to something…

Musicians and artists have been co-creating with machines (including AI) for about 50 years. We play with the machines. Look at any artist working with AI and you will see that the human artist does a lot of process, experimentation, editing and presentation. I think it's a weird personification to declare that computers will do everything themselves.

Re: The Perfect French Baguette

#56

Post by [deleted] »

_ZeD_ wrote: post #50
bobjob wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long does it take you to make 12 dinner rolls? - More than 15 min of work? Then 5.50 sounds OK to me. - More than 30 min of work? Now 5.50 are a bargain!

Why do you think making a dinner roll should be billed at the same rate of your job?

[deleted]

Re: The Perfect French Baguette

#57

Post by jacobush »

tomlockwood wrote: post #51
charles_f wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I've always found interesting as a Frenchman living in North Americ, is that there's no real equivalent to "black american" or "afro American" or "hispano American" in French. The closest you'll find is "of Tunisian origins", but that's usually left out, and not really the same. The "official" results[0] don't mention anything about his origins. The local press[1] does say his parents are from Tunisia, but only…

Thank you for the information! The idea that the rest of the press did not mention his origins reminds me of another part of the original article: > “Sometimes we get clients coming in saying, ‘The neighbourhood is full of Tunisians – thank God you guys are here!’” he said, referring to him and his wife, who works alongside him in the bakery. “But we have Tunisian origins too.” That's another interesting thing to me…

Neither were Swedes white in the USA when they first immigrated. A generation later, they were.

Re: The Perfect French Baguette

#58

Post by Xylakant »

jacobush wrote: post #57
tomlockwood wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the information! The idea that the rest of the press did not mention his origins reminds me of another part of the original article: > “Sometimes we get clients coming in saying, ‘The neighbourhood is full of Tunisians – thank God you guys are here!’” he said, referring to him and his wife, who works alongside him in the bakery. “But we have Tunisian origins too.” That's another interesting thing to me…

Neither were Swedes white in the USA when they first immigrated. A generation later, they were.

Neither were the refugees displaced from the eastern parts of the german reich after WWII. They were dismissed as Polacks (pejorative for polish people) and worse. Sometimes they were from a town no further than 30 or 40 kilometers away - just on the other side of the new border. These sorts of identities are twisted and made up in ways to suit the narrative.

Re: The Perfect French Baguette

#60

Post by new2628 »

charles_f wrote: post #46
tomlockwood wrote: post #39

> In addition to winning this illustrious competition, Bouattour and M’Seddi have a few other things in common. Both forewent the traditional trade school that many aspiring French bakers enter at age 16. Both have been professional bakers for less than a decade (as has this year’s winner, former engineer Fabrice Leroy). And both are first-generation Frenchmen with what Bouattour euphemistically dubs ‘origins’: famil…

What I've always found interesting as a Frenchman living in North Americ, is that there's no real equivalent to "black american" or "afro American" or "hispano American" in French. The closest you'll find is "of Tunisian origins", but that's usually left out, and not really the same. The "official" results[0] don't mention anything about his origins. The local press[1] does say his parents are from Tunisia, but only…

The downside of this French attitude of everyone being "just French" is that the earlier diversity of identities/languages has also been largely homogenised. Think Alsacian, Languedoc, etc.

The effect reaches well beyond France: as other countries fell in love with the model, they went after their own historical ethnic/linguistic minorities with the same determination throughout the 20th century.

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