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Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

nytimes.com

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Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#51

Post by fiblye »

zeristor wrote: post #2

What are the chances of the unrest spreading into China? One hears of sporadic unrest through China, I take the economy hasn’t yet faltered so people aren’t too disgruntled. I take it this qualifies as “Interesting Times”

The most liberal west-loving people I know in China are claiming that these are terrorist acts being pushed by America.

The chances of mainlanders being inspired by this is zero. Most seem to want to see the protesters disappear, and I don’t mean just going home and giving up.

People seem to love hyping up the idea that the young people in China will “wake up” and want democracy, free speech, etc. It’s going in the opposite direction and fast.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#52

Post by Nasrudith »

zeristor wrote: post #2

What are the chances of the unrest spreading into China? One hears of sporadic unrest through China, I take the economy hasn’t yet faltered so people aren’t too disgruntled. I take it this qualifies as “Interesting Times”

Greater than zero (never trust the heavily massaged public sentiment - and the VPN usage hints at a "silent but substantial" objecting miniority) but HK and Mainland have a history of negative sentiments that goes back to while the British still held it.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#53

Post by nesadi »

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #39
mytailorisrich wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would China even consider "ejecting" a part of its territory that they fought over for a long time to finally get back? Recovery of lost territories and reunification of the country is a core policy of the Chinese government(s) since 1912... And as noted in the replies, striving for national unity is an ancient theme of Chinese national psyche.

Which I find to be irrational. Stamford Raffles "took" Singapore from the Malay sultanate in the 1820s. In 1963, we finally got it back, but let them go barely two years later due to ingrained cultural differences that manifested during the meantime. With the rise of so many capable cities on the mainland, perhaps pursuit of unification is just not worth the trouble anymore.

> With the rise of so many capable cities on the mainland, perhaps pursuit of unification is just not worth the trouble anymore.

Maybe to you? It's clear from China's actions that they think otherwise and they're willing to do whatever it takes to ensure control and unification.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#54

Post by Nasrudith »

danieltillett wrote: post #42
mytailorisrich wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, for Chinese these territorial issues are bigger that the Communist Party. In Western countries they would be called "bi-partisan" or "cross-parties" because there is a national consensus on them.

About the only thing you will get unity on from the Chinese people is unity.

Not really. Tibet and Taiwan say hi and something about grass-mud-horse.

There is their whole mythology of "centuries of humiliation" and their warlord period for actual stand together or hang apart sentiment. However the sort of "unity" talked about is really just propagandized expansionism. I see it no different than Putin's foolish revanchism for the former USSR.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#55

Post by loyukfai »

culturestate wrote: post #43
loyukfai wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, some alleged that mainland policemen are already operating inside the HKPF. Personally I think the PLA option is a non-starter at the moment. HK for all its bads is still vitally important to the Chinese economy especially during the current trade war with the USA.

> FYI, some alleged that mainland policemen are already operating inside the HKPF. This is why I said "openly." Economically, Hong Kong is increasingly irrelevant to China - it's only like the fifth largest city by GDP, and there are 10 more catching up quickly. HK is far more important as a symbol, and if I were Xi Jinping headed into a turbulent global economy with flagging growth at home I wouldn't want it to look…

PLA is different from PAP though although we may just be disagreeing on a technicality.

BTW, HK while definitely not the economic powerhouse it once was, it still has a pretty special place as a truly international city for the PRC government, which is something intangible and cannot be expressed in pure GDP number.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#56

Post by loyukfai »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #47
loyukfai wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am not so sure about this, the current emphasis on "territorial integrity" is IMO as much, if not more of, a result of PRC propaganda as established on any historical basis.

It is not PRC propaganda. It's the other way round: PRC propaganda exploits this national feeling.

Source?

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#57

Post by csomar »

kenneth wrote: post #5

So… a few thoughts. I live in HK (having semi-recently moved here from the Bay Area, right before this all flared up). First, there's a ton of misinformation out there. Few sources have entirely accurate information, but the best English-language resource I've found on the subject is the local paper South China Morning Post (scmp.com). They have pretty accurate and unbiased live reporting of the protests as it flares…

Your argument is good and well-written. However, SCMP is well-known to be China newspaper even before Alibaba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Morning_Post

I find it very hard to believe that SCMP has both accurate and unbiased reporting after reading the Wikipedia article. This makes your comment read like a China-sponsored chill.

I'm talking about this as someone who is neither if favor of any party. Media is going to be either pro or against. It's very hard to find an unbiased media. An unbiased media needs to earn their reputation with time and a lot of effort. They also must have independent and verifiable funding that does not cross with neither party.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#58

Post by brianpgordon »

> China’s top leader, Xi Jinping, wants to make Hong Kong more like a mainland city, using economic incentives to buy happiness and propaganda to win loyalty. The protesters, who represent a wide swath of Hong Kong, want a government that looks out for their interests, not just Beijing’s, to help resolve problems like astronomical housing prices and low wages.

> The two sides no longer seem to recognize each other’s concerns.

This kind of language is why the NYT is the subject of so many centrism memes. There are no "two sides" that can "recognize each other's concerns" and get along. There are democracy and authoritarianism. I'm kind of flabbergasted that they can't find the courage to take a stand on even such a black-and-white issue. It's always "two sides."

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#59

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M »

stefan_ wrote: post #48
kenneth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you rely on South China Morning Post (scmp.com) to be unbiased as their current owner is Chinese Alibaba Group ? Apart from mild criticisms, I don't think Alibaba group can afford to publish against Chinese government. Not sure why your comment was killed, because I think it's a valid question. But since it was, responding here. Yes, they're owned by Alibaba. I happen to know some SCMP employees which gives me…

You literally just have to open their front page to find them calling military deployments in a stadium near Hong Kong "drills", citing anonymous sources that say "they are not of concern" and quoting liberally from anonymous online-posters on Chinese message boards (sic!) spouting hate.

They are literally drills: nobody is getting shot in Shenzhen.

Of course the drills are sabre-rattling, a show of force intended to send a message, and preparation for a future assault if necessary -- but they're still drills, not use of the military in anger.

Re: Protests Put Hong Kong on Collision Course with China’s Communist Party

#60

Post by markus_zhang »

kenneth wrote: post #5

So… a few thoughts. I live in HK (having semi-recently moved here from the Bay Area, right before this all flared up). First, there's a ton of misinformation out there. Few sources have entirely accurate information, but the best English-language resource I've found on the subject is the local paper South China Morning Post (scmp.com). They have pretty accurate and unbiased live reporting of the protests as it flares…

A few thoughts on my end:

1) Traditionally the Chinese government largely left the affairs of HK to HKers (in reality just the few families), so there is no reason to step in and be the bad guy right now.

2) This protest/riot is far more complicated than it seems, considering the meeting with the US diplomat as well as the involvement of the boss of next digital. Geopolitics plays a hand here.

3) Protesters should target the ruling families (e.g. the realtors) instead, thus would gain the psychological support of mainlanders. Targeting the tourists doesn't help.

4) Hope nothing really bad happens and everything goes as peacefully as possible.

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