US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers • Hacker News Board

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#51

Post by coldtea » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #35

jakear wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I detest touchscreens for most car functions. Specifically AC, with old fashioned knobs I have full control over AC without taking my eyes off the road, but nowadays everyone wants to put it on their infotainment system, hidden beneath 4 other buttons.

This is often repeated but not the complete picture. Modern, knob based, vehicle climate control systems actually bury a lot of functionality. For example Toyota's "automatic" AC you can either pick between fully automatic or a subset of manual controls. That's because they ran out of space/complexity headroom for more controls. Touch screen climate control integrates better with voice (which you should be using whil…

>Touch screen climate control integrates better with voice

That's a false dichotomy. Tactile controls doesn't mean you can have electronic logic behind them, that you can talk to in alternative ways (e.g. through voice).

Also, I wouldn't say the whole BS added to modern "climate control" (i.e. bloated AC) systems is much of an improvement...

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#52

Post by leetcrew » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #31

mhandley wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday I was driving back from Scotland to England, doing 70ish, when we ran into a really heavy thunderstorm. Went from good visibility to almost zero in seconds, and the only thing I could properly see was the crash barrier alongside the lane. I found myself desperately trying to see where the road was, simultaneously trying not to get rear-ended as I slowed up, switch on the rear fog lamps and hazards, max wipe…

Honest question: Why don't modern cars yet monitor humidity in and outside the car and make the correct decisions to keep your windows clear? Why are we focusing on self-driving cars while our cars are too dumb to do this much on their own?

on the other hand, AC is one of the only electronic features that causes a meaningful hit to fuel economy (and available power, if you have a weak engine). I very much prefer to decide for myself when it turns on.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#53

Post by greedo » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #41

inflatableDodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We still use controllers for video games over keyboards/mice Not that good an example, at least for first person shooters.

I'm sure the vast majority of FPS players are using controllers...

Most highly skilled FPS players are using mice/keyboard. In games where both console and PC are supported, PC players usually have far higher mechanical skills due to the greater controllability enabled by mouse/keyboard. Watch the OWL, and half the maneuvers that players make are simply impossible to do with a game controller.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#54

Post by coldtea » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

twic wrote: post #45

mhandley wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday I was driving back from Scotland to England, doing 70ish, when we ran into a really heavy thunderstorm. Went from good visibility to almost zero in seconds, and the only thing I could properly see was the crash barrier alongside the lane. I found myself desperately trying to see where the road was, simultaneously trying not to get rear-ended as I slowed up, switch on the rear fog lamps and hazards, max wipe…

Honest question: why didn't you take the train? This would have been a good time to take another sip of your whisky and soda.

Because he didn't know the whether would be like that?

And because he already owns a car?

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#55

Post by Someone1234 » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #38

Someone1234 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is often repeated but not the complete picture. Modern, knob based, vehicle climate control systems actually bury a lot of functionality. For example Toyota's "automatic" AC you can either pick between fully automatic or a subset of manual controls. That's because they ran out of space/complexity headroom for more controls. Touch screen climate control integrates better with voice (which you should be using whil…

I feel like you're making some very false choices between smarts/voice compatibility and physical controls. Physical buttons and dials for users to interact with that still can be changed by the system are wholly possible. For instance, a rocker switch that sits in the middle can be used to issue on and off commands, while being separate from say, a status light that lets you know whether the device is on or off. Whi…

> Physical buttons and dials for users to interact with that still can be changed by the system are wholly possible.

Sure, but irrational. One of the largest benefits of physical controls is physical feedback, like being about to feel if you've reached the max cold/hot ceilings or the state of the switches.

To make them voice compatible you have to remove that physical association (e.g. infinite spinners, or blind switches), which means now you need to take your eyes off the road to use them, which was major perk of physical controls.

Physical controls that have no physical state are the worst of both worlds. You've lost the physical and electronic control's advantages while adding the disadvantages to both.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#56

Post by mhandley » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

twic wrote: post #45

mhandley wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday I was driving back from Scotland to England, doing 70ish, when we ran into a really heavy thunderstorm. Went from good visibility to almost zero in seconds, and the only thing I could properly see was the crash barrier alongside the lane. I found myself desperately trying to see where the road was, simultaneously trying not to get rear-ended as I slowed up, switch on the rear fog lamps and hazards, max wipe…

Honest question: why didn't you take the train? This would have been a good time to take another sip of your whisky and soda.

I didn't take the train because I was transporting my son's sailing boat back from a competition. Also the train line was flooded yesterday, so that wouldn't have been an option. But normally that's not a problem, and I agree, if I'm just transporting myself, I do like the train.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#57

Post by liability » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:45 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #43

liability wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because when the sensor goes screwy I don't want my car to start flipping shit like the defroster on when it's not needed? Because manual controls make such automation totally unnecessary? Because even if the automated system were designed to be "fail safe", the state that's 'safe' is actually context dependent, therefore manual controls will be necessary anyway? It ain't broke, so stop trying to 'fix' it.

The problem is the current solution doesn't work. Because trying to perfect those settings manually while driving in near zero visibility is scary and dangerous. And nobody even knows the correct settings to use! There are YouTube videos testing whether cold or warm air is the fastest way to defrost and/or defog your window, because nobody knows or remembers. I honestly don't remember and my solution is "try both for…

Manual works just fine. I just drove clear across the Trans-Canadian Highway, east to west, in a car with manual controls and it all worked great. Your eyes stay on the road because sober people can reach out and grab objects, like knobs or buttons, without looking. If the matter of defrosting confuses you then maybe you should sit down in your car for five minutes and learn how the multi-ton machine works before attempting to operate it; you owe that much to the rest of society. Don't ruin a car just because you are too lazy to work a damn knob.

(Warm dry air evaporates water that's condensing on cold surfaces. That's very far from rocket science.)

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#58

Post by enobrev » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:45 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #2

You know, I think touchscreens are not preferable unless you need/want to be able to have controls for many different systems in the same space (e.g. a smartphone with multiple apps). If you are needing a dedicated control for a high-stakes system, the fact that it's a more modern-looking interface should not matter. Touchscreens are inherently inferior to a mechanical interface, if it's a single-system (i.e. doesn't…

This is a pretty old complaint, but my initial issues about the ipod, especially 2nd and 3rd gen was the lack of manual controls. At a younger age, a walkman or discman in my pocket with headphones in my ears was a constant, and I was able to find my way through whatever media was in there quickly and easily by thumb.

With the iPod, I could manage sometimes but about half the time I ended up having to take it out and look at what i pressed because it just wasn't working by feel. I remember a couple mp3 players from the time made manual buttons with different sizes and placement and better feedback, but they weren't around for long.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#59

Post by dmix » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #53

dmix wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure the vast majority of FPS players are using controllers...

Most highly skilled FPS players are using mice/keyboard. In games where both console and PC are supported, PC players usually have far higher mechanical skills due to the greater controllability enabled by mouse/keyboard. Watch the OWL, and half the maneuvers that players make are simply impossible to do with a game controller.

What's your point? Anyone who's played video games is well aware that value of both in different contexts. Which is my point about it not being a panacea...

It's not about the value of mice/keyboards vs controllers in gaming but about designing the best interfaces for the use-case. I doubt when the Navy designs their systems that they're trying to mimic professional gamers who needs 99.9% aiming accuracy and extremely fast response times in a simulated environment. Typically you design it for the average person, with the least amount of complexity.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#60

Post by meddlepal » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

> and that many were fatigued, with an average of 4.9 hours of sleep between the 14 crew members present.

I suspect this played more of a role than any of the controls or procedures did. I had a friend in the Navy and he once explained the shifts he did to me and how utterly insane they were.

I suspect leadership doesn't want to (or cant) fix the root cause (fatigue) and is happy to spend tax dollars to replace the steering and divert attention from the problem for now. Gotta do something! Anything! Even if it's not the right thing.