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Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

nationalgeographic.com

51–60 of 342 posts

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#51
post #22

I'm part of a group developing RNAi-based pesticides which are topically applied (so non-GM). They are extremely species specific; when designed properly they can avoid even close relatives of the target insect, and the by-product of the active ingredient is degraded RNA, which is harmless. The OECD had a meeting on it recently to help develop a regulatory framework - link here if interested ( https://www.oecd.org/ch…

No. Not better, more targeted poisons. Just stop poisoning and killing. Why is it the words of the poisoners are always so positive and optimistic, telling a beneficial tale of forward looking improvement. The words have been the same since the poisoning started in the 20th century through generation after generation of new better less dangerous poisons. Your message is this “oh no we’re no working on bad poisons, we…

Using emotive terms like 'poisoner' to tar people trying to develop safer alternatives to current products is rather disengenuous.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#52

There’s no surprise here is there? We, as a society, poison pretty much everything as a standard part of the agricultural process. The outcome -the goal - of that is of course, death of vast numbers of insects. Mission accomplished. It’s a success story, strangely. The only thing that seems weird to me is how society was so easily convinced that soaking all our food in poison is OK and not a problem all good thumbs u…

Is it that society was convinced? Or was/is it that it is more “out of sight, out of mind”? I think for the layperson, little matters other than how much does it cost? If there is some invisible but safe-for-us chemical that increases yield and decreases cost, all the better for us, right? I think this is one of the great things to come out of the invention of the web. We are becoming better informed and this kind of…

you are neglecting the negative effects of spraying billions of tons of Roundup on the planet before the public knows for sure that it is a dangerous poison. Same with neonics, we sprayed too much and the insect populations shrunk too much and will not revive quickly since the poison is still in plants and soil.

The obvious thing is that industries work for profit and have no sympathy with insects or the health of individuals and that we are unable to regulate industries in a proper way.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Not better, more targeted poisons. Just stop poisoning and killing. Why is it the words of the poisoners are always so positive and optimistic, telling a beneficial tale of forward looking improvement. The words have been the same since the poisoning started in the 20th century through generation after generation of new better less dangerous poisons. Your message is this “oh no we’re no working on bad poisons, we…

Using emotive terms like 'poisoner' to tar people trying to develop safer alternatives to current products is rather disengenuous.

Which generation of chemist/scientist since the 1970s did not describe their work as developing “safer” poisons.

Which chemical company has not sold their product primarily with the “safer” headline?

Do you really believe it? Can you not just see that’s the umbrella justification under which all new generations of poison products are developed?

The safe poison is no poison.

Why are we so intent on killing things on the planet?

“Our new product the Silent Spring Spray 9000 sets safety totally aside to give the farmer total apocalypse over all six legged creatures!!!!” said no chemical company or poisons chemist since DDT.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#54
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These products can only be successful if tested for several generations. Pesticides also had a similar narrative and ended up being used in large quantities. Their effects on environment and human health are only discovered today and were unimaginable before. It was insanely unscientific to allow massive pesticide use and it would be insanely unscientific to allow RNAi-based pesticides without testing them for decade…

As dsRNA is ubiquitous in nature, I would disagree. There is no equivalence with synthetic pesticides when it comes to the active ingredient. There's no new molecular structure, no genetic modification, no new protein produced. It's chemically identical to what you consume every day. It doesn't hang around in the environment. The status quo is we keep doing what we are currently doing for decades. The risks of doing…

> The status quo is we keep doing what we are currently doing for decades. The risks of doing that are far greater in my opinion.

Still a hard no.

It's precisely this attitude that got us where we are today. 50 years ago, the response would have been 'the status quo is we're headed towards mass starvation as we become unable to feed the giant post-war population boom using traditional agricultural techniques'.

Now we're faced with the possibility of widespread ecological collapse of marine and terrestrial ecosystems. Species are going extinct at thousands to millions of times the background rate. Even if we merely survive, the loss of genetic diversity will reverberate through millions of years and likely result in heavily degraded, less productive ecosystems that will require heavy human intervention in perpetuity to continue to function. We're basically cutting a huge hole in the boat underneath us, and signing ourselves up to bail out the water ... forever.

Let's be honest: we don't know the long-term ecological consequences of what we do. We didn't know 100 years ago, we didn't know 50 years ago, and we still don't know today. We do not have the ability to determine the long -term negative boomerang effect of mass application of so-called 'targeted' intervention.

> It's chemically identical to what you consume every day.

And how do you know drastically increasing the amount has no effect over the long term? Note that snippets of dsRNA floating around are potent immune system inducers, because it's what viruses create [1]. Does it have a long term pro-inflammatory effect? So let's assume you're correct, the dsRNA degrades quickly before humans eat it.

What about the transient immune responses of all flora and fauna in the sprayed area? What effect on the soil microbiome?

> no genetic modification

Literally modifying the genomes of fauna in the environment en masse in a highly selective way, putting enormous selective pressure in particular species. Do we even have any idea what that selective pressure will do? Will targeted species undergo rapid mutation and speciate? Will the descendant species become both more aggressive and harder to target, due to there being an empty ecological niche? Do those targeted species take on critical ecosystem roles that we're not yet aware of?

Note that this isn't idle speculation - just look at the enormous rise of MDR bacterial infections in hospitals, precisely the result of applying selective pressure for just a couple of generations.

The crux of all our problems is a chronic inability to admit that we don't know, and perhaps cannot safely know, the ecological consequences of our actions. But sure, kill away. If we're lucky, we won't be around when the boomerang hits.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5924774/

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#55

I do wonder sometimes when self preservation will kick in and put a stop to this kind of stupidity. I mean - surely the executives of those companies eat food right? Not to mention the lawsuits as big ag realises that their cash cows have been killed by an one of their suppliers products.

The problem is that the massive amount of money generated by the criminal exploitation of the eco-system pretty much isolates these people from the consequences of their actions.

At least until the starving plebs come after them with pitchforks.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#56
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds of all those times we are told that 'customers demanded X', as if we all stood outside supermarkets with placards saying, "We demand huge strawberries that don't taste of anything". The market does what helps the market, it often isn't good for people or the planet they inhabit - that's the story of our current era and customers need to demand change on that basis.

We did demand X though. The supermarkets had both tasteless strawberries and organic ones and we made our choice. Many supermarkets still have organic ones and we still pick the cheaper, larger, less tasty one.

Except, they don’t actually give you a way to judge taste. With apples people learn of better tasting variety, but strawberries are unlabeled.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#57
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Not better, more targeted poisons. Just stop poisoning and killing. Why is it the words of the poisoners are always so positive and optimistic, telling a beneficial tale of forward looking improvement. The words have been the same since the poisoning started in the 20th century through generation after generation of new better less dangerous poisons. Your message is this “oh no we’re no working on bad poisons, we…

Using emotive terms like 'poisoner' to tar people trying to develop safer alternatives to current products is rather disengenuous.

People who give advise are advisors, people who kill are murderers, people who have kids are parents and people who produce or spray poisons are poinsoners. Using the word "poisoner" is not calling some names, it is simply using the correct word for the person that we are discussing.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds of all those times we are told that 'customers demanded X', as if we all stood outside supermarkets with placards saying, "We demand huge strawberries that don't taste of anything". The market does what helps the market, it often isn't good for people or the planet they inhabit - that's the story of our current era and customers need to demand change on that basis.

We did demand X though. The supermarkets had both tasteless strawberries and organic ones and we made our choice. Many supermarkets still have organic ones and we still pick the cheaper, larger, less tasty one.

More than one time I bought organic and there wasn't a big difference. Fruit quality and taste is so random that in the end I buy the cheapest

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#59
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds of all those times we are told that 'customers demanded X', as if we all stood outside supermarkets with placards saying, "We demand huge strawberries that don't taste of anything". The market does what helps the market, it often isn't good for people or the planet they inhabit - that's the story of our current era and customers need to demand change on that basis.

We did demand X though. The supermarkets had both tasteless strawberries and organic ones and we made our choice. Many supermarkets still have organic ones and we still pick the cheaper, larger, less tasty one.

Organic doesn't mean more flavor.

Tasteless strawberries are around for a few reasons

1) you can't try before you buy. bigger, redder strawberries look better, so sell better, so are grown more, and so on until that's the expectation. if varieties are cultivated for their looks, that means they're not cultivated for their taste or sugar content

2) bigger strawberries are easier/faster to pick, which means they're cheaper to pick

3) people want strawberries in winter, which means for a lot of us that means we're accustomed to buying strawberries that have been shipped thousands of miles and not picked recently.

https://www.npr.org/2012/05/17/152944880/bigger-means-better...

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#60
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using emotive terms like 'poisoner' to tar people trying to develop safer alternatives to current products is rather disengenuous.

Which generation of chemist/scientist since the 1970s did not describe their work as developing “safer” poisons. Which chemical company has not sold their product primarily with the “safer” headline? Do you really believe it? Can you not just see that’s the umbrella justification under which all new generations of poison products are developed? The safe poison is no poison. Why are we so intent on killing things on t…

Agriculture involves preferencing specific species over others. It's intellectually dishonest to think otherwise. Getting the balance right is what we should be striving for. I'd assume you take antibiotics - lot of death caused there. Why is that OK?
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