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Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

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Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have captured the spirit of deletionism perfectly. There is nothing wrong with the comment. Quite the opposite: it was witty, hence the upvotes and it's position at the top of the page. Deletionists feel they can approach perfection by mechanically removing content according to some standard, even when readers are finding it useful or enjoyable.

One person's wit is another person's snark. On HN, either is fine if accompanied by content. Stavros' comment not only didn't have content, it had anti- content; WP's notability requirements are not a space-saving mechanism (surely they could save more space by getting rid one of of the several tens of thousands of War and Peace's worth of words in the Wikipedia: namespace.) The (most commonly expressed) logic behind…

The project can't verify content for non-notable subjects.

If that was the case, there would be no need for notability policy, merely the current verifiability standards. Unfortunately, there are many verifiable subjects of legitimate interest to people (startups, English Premier League reserve goalkeepers, fashion models who have only appeared on six magazine covers in their career, Iranian power plants) that deletionists want Wikipedia to forget about entirely because they aren't "notable".

Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#52
post #18

I've always thought Google should just buy them. If you're going to index the worlds information, this is a good start. Google has the resources and power to make sure it remains alive and well.

I don't think you deserved the many downvotes you received. It's not like you were trolling. People here just downvote things they disagree with. Personally, I think Google should donate a decent amount to WP because Freebase relies on it. Without WP, Freebase would have been useless. (Disclaimer: I have no idea if Google actually donated.)

Google donated $2 million in early 2010:

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_releases/Wikimedia...

Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#53
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person's wit is another person's snark. On HN, either is fine if accompanied by content. Stavros' comment not only didn't have content, it had anti- content; WP's notability requirements are not a space-saving mechanism (surely they could save more space by getting rid one of of the several tens of thousands of War and Peace's worth of words in the Wikipedia: namespace.) The (most commonly expressed) logic behind…

The project can't verify content for non-notable subjects. If that was the case, there would be no need for notability policy, merely the current verifiability standards. Unfortunately, there are many verifiable subjects of legitimate interest to people (startups, English Premier League reserve goalkeepers, fashion models who have only appeared on six magazine covers in their career, Iranian power plants) that deleti…

WP people don't want the encyclopedia to "forget about" those topics; they are bickering about whether they deserve entire pages to themselves.

... which again gives lie to the idea that the issue is "disk space".

I'm not trying to get sucked into this "deletionism" vs "inclusionism" argument, since those labels suck all the oxygen out of the discussion ("what, you're siding with people who think _why doesn't belong in WP?" --- of course not.) I'm just pointing out how bankrupt the original comment was.

Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#54
post #23
post #18

I've always thought Google should just buy them. If you're going to index the worlds information, this is a good start. Google has the resources and power to make sure it remains alive and well.

I tend to disagree due to future uncertainties. While Google may seem like the ultimate do-no-evil company at this moment, what will happen in 15, or even 30 years? If Google eventually "turns", it may lead to fragmentation of the Wikipedia project, and consequently a lack of focus. To me, Wikimedia (the foundation) seems like the type of foundation that will always keep a clear focus and maintain the core values of…

Why wouldn't the foundation ever go corrupt? Trusting a single institution is never the kind of system that works--that's practically the first lesson of political history. What will keep Wikipedia going is the GFDL/Creative Commons licensing. The freedom to fork (thus distributing trust over many) is better than trusting any single entity.

Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the things people are worried about with that it would allow something close to paid additions/rebuttals to Wikipedia articles, at least if ad buyers were good enough at the AdSense targeting. The goal is to have a neutral article that covers all viewpoints fairly, but then you'd have this little box where whoever pays the most money would get the opportunity to insert a link to their take on the subject.

Exactly. Or to put a finer point on it: there becomes a much greater pressure to insert ads as content . Why pay for an ad sense spot if you can just insert your own ad into the relevant wiki article?

So all the merchants that can't buy an ad aren't trying to subtly insert ads as content currently? Advertisers only have one choice now--try to get a mention, try to get a link, perhaps as a source--do whatever it takes to get into the content of the article.

If Wikipedia sold ads, they would have the alternative to buy an ad instead; I don't see how the problem of advertisement-as-content would be worsened when given a choice to buy an ad. If anything, I think it's the other way around.

Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The express purpose is to remain neutral and to avoid conflicts of interest. They're not in it to make money. Wikipedia isn't in the Answers.com business, and doesn't particularly want to be.

The express purpose is to remain neutral and to avoid conflicts of interest. How well do you think Wikipedia is doing at that? (I ask as a new Wikipedian, registered and actively editing only for about a half year, who has seen many very controversial articles that are anything but neutral in point of view, ads or no ads.)

I've been editing for a couple years now. The vast majority of articles beyond stub class are great. The ones that get brought up on AN/I or ArbCom or MedCab are generally on subjects that people hold very strong opinions on. For example, the first article I became very involved with was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Ar.... When I came to that article, it was in the middle of an edit war between Republican and Unionist factions. Each wanted the article to reflect their POV, so there was much arguing over whether the IRA "caused"/"was responsible for" X deaths, or they "murdered" X people. Similarly, many editors wanted to be sure that the page clearly showed they were a terrorist organization. WP:TERRORIST specifically prohibits the labelling of an organization as such, so instead those editors fought to have the article state that other organizations had labelled the IRA terrorists, etc.

That's generally how it goes on the sensitive articles. The three main areas of political debate on Wikipedia are Israel/Palestine, Eastern Europe, and Northern Ireland. There have been perennial edit wars, and many ArbCom cases. There have been mailing lists and drives by external organizations to infiltrate the ranks of Wikipedia so as to have their viewpoint expressed. There are admins who have acted improperly and had their status stripped, and there are others who have done the same with impunity. Basically, it's a shitstorm.

It also affects less than 0.001% of articles on Wikipedia. As far as articles with promotional points of view, recognize that many companies will actively edit the article on them, and it takes diligent community members to counteract their whitewashing. That's why WP:COIN and other noticeboards exist. Similarly, some people will edit an article with the goal of making the subject of that article look bad. The remedy is the same as for whitewashing: a neutral community member needs to fix the article.

The problem is that there are millions of Wikipedia articles, most of which the average editor will never come across. The community is big, but not that big. We will never make Wikipedia perfect, although I have some ideas for making it more so.

In the end, the best you can do is fix problems as you come across them. If you notice any patterns that you think could be identified algorithmically, consider writing a bot or, if you are unable to do so, approach one of the prolific bot writers like MZMcBride with your idea. Otherwise, just keep plugging away, and realize that the dramawhoring that characterizes the Wikipedia community is largely absent from the articles themselves.

Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#57
post #18

I've always thought Google should just buy them. If you're going to index the worlds information, this is a good start. Google has the resources and power to make sure it remains alive and well.

I don't think you deserved the many downvotes you received. It's not like you were trolling. People here just downvote things they disagree with. Personally, I think Google should donate a decent amount to WP because Freebase relies on it. Without WP, Freebase would have been useless. (Disclaimer: I have no idea if Google actually donated.)

Thanks, I appreciate that. I wasn't trying to troll at all. It's simply a reality that it takes a certain amount of resources to keep Wikipedia running. If a large donation is more favorable than purchasing them -- then by all means that's the route to go. I simply meant that I would hate to see something like WP suffer if the situation came about where donations aren't enough to keep it running.

Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#58
post #21
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the editing history is archived, right?

Who digs through editing history when they're looking stuff up? And he's talking about the number of articles, if I'm not mistaken.

I thought that, since all the edits were kept in the database, more harddrives wouldn't matter. But as kens pointed out, that is not the case.

Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#59
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! So they spent nearly $9M in salaries vs $2M for bandwidth, $1M in travel expenses, $2M in office rent/furniture/meetings https://docs.google.com/gview?url=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikime... 2010 Wikipedia Spending, in USD, in thousands 8,972 Salaries and wages 1,837 Internet hosting 3,270 Capital expenditures 483 Donation processing fees, charitable registrations 2,274 External contractors 864 Travel for staff, Bo…

What's the big deal? Unlike bandwidth people get more and more expensive to employ over time. Health-care and cost of living are two biggies.

If you actually read the PDF, page 23 shows that they had 47 paid staff for 2009-2010, and they plan to have 91 (almost double) by the end of 2010-2011, so it's a case of increasing staff numbers, not (or at least, not entirely) increasing staff salaries.

Re: Wikipedia Raises $16 Million to Remain Ad-Free

#60
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person's wit is another person's snark. On HN, either is fine if accompanied by content. Stavros' comment not only didn't have content, it had anti- content; WP's notability requirements are not a space-saving mechanism (surely they could save more space by getting rid one of of the several tens of thousands of War and Peace's worth of words in the Wikipedia: namespace.) The (most commonly expressed) logic behind…

The project can't verify content for non-notable subjects. If that was the case, there would be no need for notability policy, merely the current verifiability standards. Unfortunately, there are many verifiable subjects of legitimate interest to people (startups, English Premier League reserve goalkeepers, fashion models who have only appeared on six magazine covers in their career, Iranian power plants) that deleti…

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